richard_noggin Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 Letter in the new rock and Ice#118 pg16 So prelaceing draws on a sport climb is reported as a red point but preplaceing gear on a trad climb is a pinkpoint. Whathefuksupwitdat what it is,is what it is Red is red, pink is pink just be bold enought to report your style of ascent. The only reason I can see for preplaced draws is on overhanging routes too steep to efficiently get your draws off and in that case they should be permanent draws and BTW I don't climb that hard.Dang Euro sporto's make'in up new rules,thats where this dang bolted face climbing came from Quote
Off_White Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 Yah, I had the same reaction, the logic made no sense to me. They said its okay to pre-clip for sport routes because it makes it easier? That's exactly the point! Then last night, reading the fine print in Kevin McLane's current Squamish guidebook, I find he lays out the same guidelines as R&I for ascent definition. Turns out its not the Euro's, its the Canadians! Anyway, it seems to be more widespread as a definition. Me, I know it feels when I actually do the route, and thats what matters in my book. Quote
richard_noggin Posted August 5, 2002 Author Posted August 5, 2002 Mr White I'm begining to like your laid back real person logic Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 Silly alpine/trad climbers! Â If you crack open your Smith Rock guidebook, (which was published in what, 1992?) and refer to the "Ethics" section, there is a blurb about means of ascent. The idea of leaving the draws hanging and calling the no-falls ascent of a thusly-prepared route a "redpoint" harkens back at least a decade, and is endorsed by none other than Alan Watts, American Sports-Climbing Hero. Â The concept being that with bolts already in place, the point of a sport route is to push one's physical limit without having to dink with gear. So while hanging draws adds some difficulty to it, it's far from the same amount of difficulty added by placing gear on a trad route. Â But the point is that this practice has been in place for years, and 99.9999% (official government survey figures) of all sport routes that are redpointed are done with the draws hanging. Quote
rr666 Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone:Â You and erik need to get your priorities straight. [/QB] I guess I did leave out one of the biggest priorities -> all of the beer at the end of the day Quote
iain Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 reading aaj ticks me off. I check the dates on all those monster climbs and think back about what I was doing on that day - oh yeah, I worked that day...hey and that day too. hey, that dude's 2 years younger than me and is a himalayan veteran, etc, etc, ad nauseum  guess I gotta quit the job and sell the ranch (i.e. my truck, my sole possession of any value) Quote
Don_Gonthier Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 Lambone. If its not such a big deal, why give it a special name? Why don't you just say 'hey I lead that' or 'I fell on a that while toproping'? See, come on now, it is a big deal to you. You wish you could place the draws on lead, but ya can't, so you give it a special name to preserve your ego. Think about it. I'm sure most sport routes you climb it makes no difference, but there has to be a few that without hanging draws first you can't climb free. It dosn't matter if its only just a tiny bit easier. If you can't do it without pre placeing draws, you still can't do it. Changing the name of somthing dosen't change the thing. The thing I don't like is that while we all have a limit at which we all fall off, if a climber were to pre hang draws on a 10a he wouldn't get quite the respect that a climber prehanging draws on a 12a would get. Yet the tactics are exactly the same. Its all about ego. Lambone this is not an attack on you personally but just a random rant. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Don Gonthier: DFA aren't you a little far from home? I think you should run along home before one of the big kids steals your lunch money. Come on! quoting Alan Watts as an authority on climbing ethics. Get real. 'Oh, I got the pink point'. 'Oh, Oh, I think I'm having a redpoint'. How gay. The "big kids," huh? The Doctor should be concerned because alpine and trad climbing are so much more legitimate pursuits, is that it? Please. We'll see if you're still shit-talking sport climbers the next time you need someone to rescue your draws after another failed attempt on Gumby, hardman. Â Anyway, DFA was just explaining (from a sport climber's point of view--imagine that!) a common sport climbing practice, and citing an appropriately sport climbing-oriented source written by the father of American sport climbing. W/r/t DFA being "far from home," various members of cc.com keep peppering the smithrock.com message board with requests for the Doctor and other sport-minded individuals to come visit. And he wouldn't normally hang out with such a crass assortment of crusty mountain goats (a compliment, no?), but smithrock.com has been a little slow lately, so here he is. Quote
Lambone Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Don Gonthier: Lambone. If its not such a big deal, why give it a special name? Why don't you just say 'hey I lead that' or 'I fell on a that while toproping'? See, come on now, it is a big deal to you. You wish you could place the draws on lead, but ya can't, so you give it a special name to preserve your ego. Think about it. I'm sure most sport routes you climb it makes no difference, but there has to be a few that without hanging draws first you can't climb free. It dosn't matter if its only just a tiny bit easier. If you can't do it without pre placeing draws, you still can't do it. Changing the name of somthing dosen't change the thing. The thing I don't like is that while we all have a limit at which we all fall off, if a climber were to pre hang draws on a 10a he wouldn't get quite the respect that a climber prehanging draws on a 12a would get. Yet the tactics are exactly the same. Its all about ego. Lambone this is not an attack on you personally but just a random rant. Don, Maybe I should have been more clear. I think the names are rediculous, which is why I didn't choose to address a "red point or a pink point"...in my opinion you either climbed iot without falling, or you didn't. If you did it on-sight, well good for you. I think sport climbing is much more about the climbing itself rather than the protection, which is why it realy doesn't matter if the draws are hanging or not. I have never tried to "pink-point" a route with fixed draws because my tendons are too weak for that shit. Â Trad climbing on the otherhand is all about having the skill to place good protection while on the sharp end. If you aid up, or rap down at your leasure leaving bomber gear for the free attempt...well your not realy trad climbing in my opinion. Sure you did the moves, but thats only half of the game... Â See where I'm coming from? Â As for redpoint or pinkpoint...those are just stupid names that someone came up with in the late 80's and I think it's kinda funny that people are still bitching about it 15 years later... Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Don Gonthier: Lambone. If its not such a big deal, why give it a special name? Why don't you just say 'hey I lead that' or 'I fell on a that while toproping'? See, come on now, it is a big deal to you. You wish you could place the draws on lead, but ya can't, so you give it a special name to preserve your ego. Think about it. I'm sure most sport routes you climb it makes no difference, but there has to be a few that without hanging draws first you can't climb free. It dosn't matter if its only just a tiny bit easier. If you can't do it without pre placeing draws, you still can't do it. Changing the name of somthing dosen't change the thing. The thing I don't like is that while we all have a limit at which we all fall off, if a climber were to pre hang draws on a 10a he wouldn't get quite the respect that a climber prehanging draws on a 12a would get. Yet the tactics are exactly the same. Its all about ego. Lambone this is not an attack on you personally but just a random rant. Funny thing, every one of the Doctor's no-fall lead ascents (since we're delving into semantics) have taken place with draws hanging, aside from onsights. And it is common practice at Smith to see people from the Peanut to Churning Buttress "redpointing" routes with the draws already up. You see, sport climbers have moved past quibbling over which way is more cool, and simply go with the way that makes the most sense for the medium. Â A 5.10 climber gets no less respect for sending with the draws already hanging than a 5.12 climber, and DFA has never heard hardman sporty types badmouthing beginners for climbing this way. It's basically the accepted means by which one progresses in sport climbing, as the emphasis is on pushing ones physical limit, not the technical mastery of quickdraw placement. Â It's not as if having the draws in place suddenly enables you to advance a couple number grades or something. And since 99.9999% of the sport climbing world uses the draws-in-place redpoint standard, it's not as if claiming a redpoint with the draws up is somehow cheating. Quote
Greg_W Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 I climbed up a gulley on pre-placed scree and boulders this weekend. Is that a grey-point? Â Greg W Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 Thanks, Erik! <---- that's PBR, of course  Lambone has a good point about red- vs. pinkpointing. Those terms are fairly dated, and since the standard is to climb no-falls with the draws already up, it's generally referred to as a "send," and it's assumed that the draws were hanging there for you. So when it's time to hit the pub and spray about how rad you are, one might say that they "got," "did," "sent," "fired," or "fuckin' ass-reamed" the route. Quote
Lambone Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: It's basically the accepted means by which one progresses in sport climbing, as the emphasis is on pushing ones physical limit, not the technical mastery of quickdraw placement. Â [/QB] yeah, i like that Quote
bellemontagne Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 It seems like the whole point of trad climbing is to do it from the ground up. If you're placing gear on rappel, then it's not trad climbing - it should be SPORT (or wanker climbing). Â Beth Rodden did some 5.13 "trad" climb in Colorado that was publicized in one of the magazines some months ago. Turned out she lead it on preplaced gear! Not to mention, other men and women led the crack before from the ground up. I can't remember the name of the route, but I think a woman even onsited it... Burly. Â I think part of this trend towards preplacing gear on hard trad climbs is so that climbers can get their names in the climbing media. It's a lot easier to climb a hard trad route on preplaced gear than spending the time (or simply having the skill to onsite the route) to work out the sequence so you can do a ground up lead. If climbers get their names in the media more often, then they are more likely to get sponsorships - therefore more $$$$$. Â Even though preplaced draws on sport routes is the "tradition" at some areas like smith, I always thought of it as kinda lame. A climber who can clip the bolts on lead is a lot burlier than the one that climbs on preplaced draws. I'm a TOTAL gumby climber these days, but I find it amusing that people do things to bring the climb down to their level (like chipping, gluing, preplacing draws, etc, etc). If the climb is above your abilities, you don't HAVE TO climb it. It's not the end of the world if you cannot climb that "one" route... Quote
iain Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: I climbed up a gulley on pre-placed scree and boulders this weekend. Is that a grey-point? Â Greg W right on bra, damn right! Quote
Lambone Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 I believe Rodden and Caldwell used pre placed gear on Lurking Fear as well. Â Then again, the Shield was done clean after the cruxes were fixed beforehand... Â I think this kinda thing happens in all aspects of climbing. Hell, people have pre-placed food on the Pacific Crest Trail. Does that make it a Pink-Hike? Quote
iain Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 yeah, it's almost as unfair as preplaced cellphones and CH-47's. what is the climbing world coming to? Quote
Lambone Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 too bad we couldn't get any reception in the icicle this weekend... Quote
Off_White Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: look at the recent claim of 3 'experienced' climbers trapped on glacier peak And to think I just assumed they were trippin' Â Doctor, nice to have you aboard. Others may not agree, but its good to have an unabashed sport climbing advocate around here as another perspective, when most are into puffing up about who is more trad than the next. Talk about PC! If we all agreed about everything this place would be snoozeville. Me, I like it all, and if you're not wearing wool knickers, nailed boots, and hemp rope then its all new fangled whack-and-dangle tomfoolery to me. Quote
Off_White Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by bellemontagne: [QB]I think part of this trend towards preplacing gear on hard trad climbs is so that climbers can get their names in the climbing media. /QB] For some reason this brought to mind the headlines I just read in the line at the supermarket that Tom and Nicole were back together again. Truth be told, celebrity achievement and high end ascents have so little to do with me (and I reckon most of us on this board) that it might as well be in People magazine for all the relevance it has to a person who is just tickled to get out about. Are they back together or did she just give him a blowjob in the back of the limo? Preplace or onsight that 5.13d crack? Same difference to me. Quote
Bronco Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 I bet that yellow ball animal thing on the doggyporn link likes his little "pink partner" Quote
sk Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 IMHO...climb because you like it, not so you can tell someone what you climbed in special climbing jargon it's kindda silly, like a secret hand shake or something... Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 What about the big numbers? Is it still OK to spray about the big numbers? And let's not forget name-dropping and exaggerating. How the hell are you going to talk about climbing without all that? Quote
sk Posted August 5, 2002 Posted August 5, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: What about the big numbers? Is it still OK to spray about the big numbers? And let's not forget name-dropping and exaggerating. How the hell are you going to talk about climbing without all that? sure DFA, whatever makes you happy. But the mental image I get is a bunch of grown men walking arround sniffing eachothers asses to see who the roughest, toughest, hardman is...makes a girl laugh at least Quote
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