allthumbs Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: i think the reason no one gives a shit about your post, is that you seem to repersent a minority of people who actully dont climb that much. yet feel they need to be part of the scene so they can have a peer group. hey brah, i resemble that statement...you dissin' me?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Anderson Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Re whether it was a trad ascent: You had the first aid ascent(probably). Then you had the first redpoint ascent. Someone else can get the first onsight ascent. From now on, no one can ever have the first ascent onsight. It sounds like the first blind-folded ascent is still up for grabs also. Who cares if your two ascents or someonelse's later pink-pointed ascent counts as trad, neo-trad or sport? Â "Trad climbing" is a subset of the spectrum of all climbing. It's a useful label to let potential partners know what general types of climbs might interest you. It's useful to describe a set of experiences that you enjoy. The only other use it might have is to help the ego of someone who thinks that they performed a "more trad" ascent than someone else. Â There's no consensus as to where trad stops and other genres start (of course, at the outer limits, there is consensus - 1/2 inch bolts every three feet on a route intended for free climbing is not trad - course those same bolts might be an overbuilt aid ladder on a different piece of rock). Â If the details of whether gear was preplaced, a climb was pre-cleaned, a route was pre-inspected, or the climber wore a blindfold matter to you, then just accurately label how you did a climb within what you consider the relevant criteria and move on. No matter how ridiculous those criteria might be (i.e. blindfolded), at least you are just accurately labeling your conduct with a concrete description. Â Trad should be a unifying concept. Not one to bag on other people's ascents. Â Re: whether it is ethical to add the bolt. Given that: 1) You are the first aid ascentionist; 2) You are the first free ascentionist; and 3) The free ascent was done with pre-inspections cleaning, rehearsal (I'm assuming)etc. all on rappell. It is no more or less ethical for you to add a bolt now than it would have been before you succeeded in freeing the climb. Â Given your mode of preparation (on rapell) you had the power to stick the bolt in when you were cleaning it. The fact that you didn't appears to be because you didn't properly understand how it protected. The fact that you wound being able to do what it sounds like you consider a headpoint ascent when you were intending a reasonably protected ascent doesn't stop you from creating the reasonably protected climb you envisioned. Â Of course, whether a bolt would be appropriate at that point on a climb cleaned on rappell is an open question. Sounds like you were the only one who knows what the pro is like. My personal beliefs says that if adequate protection is possible, but very difficult to place, then a person should just get stronger instead of placing the bolt. Placing a bolt for ease of placement is no better or worse than chipping a hold for ease of movement. I think its wrong. Â matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 P.S. I don't know who started bolting the area or why. I just know the bolts are there. Weather they should be or not has been a matter of great debate in my house. I don't think that cracks should be bolted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayjay Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 oh, sorry red monk, you're right, my list was not exhaustive... i wasn't saying that there was no way that the example sk gave would make sense, i was just wondering if in this case it did. but since details cannot be supplied: Â if there IS pro to be had, just not very good pro, like in flares, should it be bolted? or just left for those w/ the balls to climb on sketchy pro? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Red monk is correct. they were flared cracks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Richard: Â I wasn't trying to slam you, but you do see the superficial similarity between your question and Poptart's? Maybe its partly that the area is not named, so the whole thing sounds secretive and hypothetical. Between the "dick head" name and my non-specific memories of other posts of yours, I assumed this was a "stir up the shit" moniker of someone else on this board, and hence your post seemed out of character. For me to say "more spray than substance" simply refers to posts on this board and in no way is intended to make any assumptions about what effect you have out there in the real world. Or anyone else for that matter, for all I know trask is really the head of the Mountaineers. Â And to take your question seriously, I think your style on the unspecified route is reasonably traditional for the way routes get put up in the Northwest. Gardening and cleaning is a fact of life up here. As much as anything, you are creating a route that others can lead in a traditional manner. I'd say you got the first ascent, as well as the first free ascent. I don't think most cragging routes (alpine is a different story) around here lend themselves to the archetypal "I walked up to the unknown crack and flashed it" trad ideal. Many of those classic cracks in Yosemite started out life as grass filled horror shows that were first climbed on aid, and later cleaned into the tasty lines they are today. Â As for the chicken bolt, as the route creator, its your call. You're bound to get flack either way you go. A 20' whipper if you're not grounding out is not that horrendous, unless you mean 20' out from your last gear worth anything, in which case you're looking at 45' which is serious. Bold routes are cool, but they often don't get that much traffic, and to be sure a chicken bolt will make the route more popular, which will also lead to it staying clean as opposed to being reclaimed by the dirt and veg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 the tools are availiable these days to climb such cracks clean sans bolts...if you want to do it, just go spend the $ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by trask: hey brah, i resemble that statement...you dissin' me?? Â actually trask you own up to it. unlike the other person whom may have once been, and is living off of that single or possible other climbing outings... Â by the way trask, when we gonna hit erie....near your house.....gregw and i can stop by sunday or friday.....throuw down some routes beers and if greg's wife allows some chicas!!!! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Matt Anderson: (of course, at the outer limits, there is consensus - 1/2 inch bolts every three feet on a route intended for free climbing is not trad - What if they were all drilled on the lead by hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayjay Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 "the means does not justify the ends"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 hey, so far there have been two new routes posted on this board, yet neither of the first assencionists are revealing where they are. Â WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH THAT!? Â Nothing pisses me off more. If you want to spray about your new route, cool go for it, but don't spray and just leave us wondering, that's bullshit. If secrecy is your thing then just keep your mouth shut in the first place. Â my .02$ Â [ 07-24-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH THAT!? Â They're worried that Retro will go erase them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 so what...it's not like it wont happen anyway. Like I said, if you don't want people to know about it, keep your mouth shut. Don't tease us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: by the way trask, when we gonna hit erie....near your house.....gregw and i can stop by sunday or friday.....throuw down some routes beers and if greg's wife allows some chicas!!!! Â What's Trask going to do? Be official beer toter? He could bring a laptop and cellular hookup, then he could post some third-person spray about the sick lines we're flashing!!! Â Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 and another thing trask, most of the time you are funny..... Â unlike poptart who just seems to be more annoying then i wish i could ever be..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted July 25, 2002 Author Share Posted July 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: hey, so far there have been two new routes posted on this board, yet neither of the first assencionists are revealing where they are. Â WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH THAT!? Â Nothing pisses me off more. If you want to spray about your new route, cool go for it, but don't spray and just leave us wondering, that's bullshit. If secrecy is your thing then just keep your mouth shut in the first place. Â my .02$ The Bone is pissed and he has a right to be. There is in fact three crags in WA I have been working. The new crack i recently put up will eventually be in a new guide book, but not any time soon. The second is a sport crag and beta on it will probably be leaking out sometime next year. The third is in Leavenworth ,a bushwack through private property owned by a climber, this crag is destined to be secret for as long as possible. I have been sworn to secrecy by the climbers that discovered these crags.Sorry dude, Bolt choppers affect all of us. The reason I started this tread is because in the past I have put up crack climbs with no bolts and sport climbs with all bolts. I just was not sure what to do with this climb, I put a lot of work into it and want other climbers to enjoy it, and I want to enjoy it in the future myself.I was haveing a mental ethics struggle. I should have not ask here for the answer.What was I think'in this is where you spray and get sprayed upon. Pink is pink,Red is Red and if you rehearse it, preplace gear it is brown (shit point) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 say what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayBonbon Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Originally posted by richard noggin: will eventually be in a new guide book, but not any time soon... will probably be leaking out sometime next year.... this crag is destined to be secret for as long as possible  Well fuck off chump change, secret clubhouse creepy handshake smell my secret spot climbers got no business consulting us peons about how to run their pissant little hush hush kingdoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidW Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 I don't see where anyone should be pissed. They were hypothetical questions even if they did refer to actual routes. Â I think its pretty easy to get concensus among a group of friends and a few brews. It takes a strong (or crazy) person to come on here and toss out an honest question about a topic of personal importance tho! Â Noggin you sound like you are going a good direction..... what are the other crack lines there like? Are there a number of safe ones such that maybe one with sketchy pro is ok to leave that way? Are the other routes there discontinous cracks that have bolts linking the cracks? Â I guess I'm asking you what the local ethic is. I've a few times waited years before I would attempt an existing climb with sketchy pro and the tic was certainly sweet when it came. If you're unsure about drilling it, ask a few more people and throw out the high and low scores! Â Cheers to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidW Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 I don't see where anyone should be pissed. They were hypothetical questions even if they did refer to actual routes. Â I think its pretty easy to get concensus among a group of friends and a few brews. It takes a strong (or crazy) person to come on here and toss out an honest question about a topic of personal importance tho! Â Noggin you sound like you are going a good direction..... what are the other crack lines there like? Are there a number of safe ones such that maybe one with sketchy pro is ok to leave that way? Are the other routes there discontinous cracks that have bolts linking the cracks? Â I guess I'm asking you what the local ethic is. I've a few times waited years before I would attempt an existing climb with sketchy pro and the tic was certainly sweet when it came. If you're unsure about drilling it, ask a few more people and throw out the high and low scores! Â Cheers to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidW Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 I don't see where anyone should be pissed. They were hypothetical questions even if they did refer to actual routes. Â I think its pretty easy to get concensus among a group of friends and a few brews. It takes a strong (or crazy) person to come on here and toss out an honest question about a topic of personal importance tho! Â Noggin you sound like you are going a good direction..... what are the other crack lines there like? Are there a number of safe ones such that maybe one with sketchy pro is ok to leave that way? Are the other routes there discontinous cracks that have bolts linking the cracks? Â I guess I'm asking you what the local ethic is. I've a few times waited years before I would attempt an existing climb with sketchy pro and the tic was certainly sweet when it came. If you're unsure about drilling it, ask a few more people and throw out the high and low scores! Â Cheers to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Saccharine_Trust Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Notice to climbers asking questions on the board: From here on out, you will be required to submit your climbing resume to Erik the moderator before asking any questions about anything, especially climbing ethics. This is a matter of world importance and only Erik is authorized to determine whether or not you are worthy of asking such a question. Prepare to be dazzling for the interview to follow the resume review. Â Weekend warriors and people with interests other than climbing need not apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Off- Â Isn't "chicken" in the phrase "chicken bolt" redundent? Â Oh and be careful Mr. Anderson hates it when his careful topologies are critiqued. Â Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Lets be nice. No one likes a bunch of frowny pants arguing. Â My thoughts on the new route: "Stain Point" -J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necronomicon Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Although, what do you call an ascent where you hang at every bolt but don't actually take a fall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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