Where Are the Wingnuts

[prole]

I have no objection to letting them go bankrupt and having the courts make the cuts via the bankruptcy process. Bills that can't be paid, won't be paid.

 

Courts or autocrats, Jay never met a dictatorial power in the service of capital he didn't like.

 

So...the Democratic mayor of Sacramento is a dictator, and the pool of revenues generated by local taxes, for the express purpose of providing public services, is "capital?"

 

Yes. Every public adminstrator trying to maintain the minimal level of public services with the actual stream of income at his disposal is a cigar chomping plutocrat hellbent on leveraging his power to enrich himself at the expense of the poor wretches under his charge. :lmao:

 

"Critical Social science degrees and and the damage done, a Marxist cartoon for everything under the sun, ohhhh, the damage done..."

 

Can the good guy bullshit, psycho-boy. We all know this is about bond traders and shareholder value for you. The crisis in public services just provides a convenient talking point to make sure the "right people" get paid and the "other guys" take the haircut. If it were about anything else, y'all wouldn't have been cashing out all your chips through tax cuts when times were flush.

Edited March 17, 2011 by prole

[JayB]

I have no objection to letting them go bankrupt and having the courts make the cuts via the bankruptcy process. Bills that can't be paid, won't be paid.

 

Courts or autocrats, Jay never met a dictatorial power in the service of capital he didn't like.

 

So...the Democratic mayor of Sacramento is a dictator, and the pool of revenues generated by local taxes, for the express purpose of providing public services, is "capital?"

 

Yes. Every public adminstrator trying to maintain the minimal level of public services with the actual stream of income at his disposal is a cigar chomping plutocrat hellbent on leveraging his power to enrich himself at the expense of the poor wretches under his charge. :lmao:

 

"Critical Social science degrees and and the damage done, a Marxist cartoon for everything under the sun, ohhhh, the damage done..."

 

Can the good guy bullshit, psycho-boy. We all know this is about bond traders and shareholder value for you. The crisis in public services just provides a convenient talking point to make sure the "right people" get paid and the "other guys" take the haircut. If it were about anything else, y'all wouldn't have been cashing out all your chips through tax cuts when times were flush.

 

What role are the Freemasons and/or the Bilderburg Group playing all of this? Please expand.

 

Interesting to record all of the non-answers that Jim's very straightforward questions have generated here.

[Jim]

I think the answers have been - build the economy, sustain middle class jobs, offer universal health care, etc. While all great ideas, if you were discussing the issue with the mayor of San Jose, or many other jurisdictions, he would patiently lean across the desk and say "Yes, but what am I to do now, in my City?".

 

Still waiting for that answer.

[ivan]

I think the answers have been - build the economy, sustain middle class jobs, offer universal health care, etc. While all great ideas, if you were discussing the issue with the mayor of San Jose, or many other jurisdictions, he would patiently lean across the desk and say "Yes, but what am I to do now, in my City?".

 

Still waiting for that answer.

legalize pot and prostitution and watch the tax revenues roll in?

[prole]

What role are the Freemasons and/or the Bilderburg Group playing all of this? Please expand.

 

Crying "conspiracy theory!". The last refuge of the scoundrel.

[prole]

I think the answers have been - While all great ideas, if you were discussing the issue with the mayor of San Jose, or many other jurisdictions, he would patiently lean across the desk and say "Yes, but what am I to do now, in my City?".

 

Still waiting for that answer.

 

Declare bankruptcy, request federal aid, revisit egregious abuses in wage and benefit packages of public workers where they exist, build the economy, sustain middle class jobs, offer universal health care, etc.

[Jim]

I think the answers have been - While all great ideas, if you were discussing the issue with the mayor of San Jose, or many other jurisdictions, he would patiently lean across the desk and say "Yes, but what am I to do now, in my City?".

 

Still waiting for that answer.

 

Declare bankruptcy, request federal aid, revisit egregious abuses in wage and benefit packages of public workers where they exist, build the economy, sustain middle class jobs, offer universal health care, etc.

 

Well that's practical.

 

 

I believe in unions and collective bargining, but the pension thing should just be turned into 401ks. That would help preserve government jobs and show that folks are interested in being responsible for funding their own reiterment, rather than on the back of public services and the taxpayer.

 

[rob]

Crying "conspiracy theory!". The last refuge of the scoundrel.

 

I thought that was "patriotism."

[prole]

I think the answers have been - While all great ideas, if you were discussing the issue with the mayor of San Jose, or many other jurisdictions, he would patiently lean across the desk and say "Yes, but what am I to do now, in my City?".

 

Still waiting for that answer.

 

Declare bankruptcy, request federal aid, revisit egregious abuses in wage and benefit packages of public workers where they exist, build the economy, sustain middle class jobs, offer universal health care, etc.

 

Well that's practical.

 

Imminently more practical than squeezing the remaining blood from these "fatcats"...

 

Slice of life for the middle class in Ohio

 

Edited March 17, 2011 by prole

[Jim]

As usual another staw dog. No one has said anything about cutting wages. The folks in the article live in an area of the country that has been on the sharp end of manufacturing decline for decades. With no education the options are pretty bleak, I agree.

 

Hacking the military budget, maintaining social security benefits, putting money into more grants for low income folks to go to school, universal medical care - yep to all of them.

 

But subsidising pensions - nope. There's lots of low-wage taxpayers struggling to put a retirement plan together - who then have to fund the above. Now, if you're suggesting EVERYONE get a pony....

[prole]

Perhaps you can think of the example of Ohio public workers as an antidote to your San Jose one, most workers live somewhere in between. I certainly appreciate your relatively level-headed approach and the rhetorical lip-service you're willing to pay to those things that really will make a difference, I really do. Unfortunately, the narratives and proposals being put forth across the country have far outstripped it. If you think the ideologues and their mini-me's like Jay who currently have the upper hand are going to stop at retirement contributions in their efforts to both untether themselves from the societies that've made them rich and depress labor costs across the board, you've been watching the wrong channel.

[Jim]

Unfortunately, the narratives and proposals being put forth across the country have far outstripped it. If you think the ideologues and their mini-me's like Jay who currently have the upper hand are going to stop at retirement contributions in their efforts to both untether themselves from the societies that've made them rich and depress labor costs across the board, you've been watching the wrong channel.

 

I agree. And it's it up to good-minded people to come together to keep that from happening. But ignoring unsustainable practices that involve valid critisisims doesn't do the govenment labor force any good either. If I thought there were a sustainable, cost-effective solution to maintain the current practice - I would suggest it. I honestly just don't see how local governments, the state, or the feds are going be able to keep the pyramid alive.

[tvashtarkatena]

All the more reason to celebrate Jim's reasonable and well reasoned approach rather than the standard, party line denigration of workers rights supplied by JayB et al.

 

But of course, True Believers are duty bound to immediately slam the slider to 11, either Right or Left. Anything less is treason.

 

Having said that, I believe most employers who do offer benefits subsidize retirement, often through some kind of matching program. Any statements to the contrary (against public employees) constitutes another layer of bullshit on top of a very large pile at this point.

Edited March 17, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[Jim]

Having said that, I believe most employers who do offer benefits subsidize retirement, often through some kind of matching program. Any statements to the contrary (against public employees) constitutes another layer of bullshit on top of a very large pile at this point.

 

And I would agree, to a point. But most, including current WA state and federal plans have participant contribute a very small amount, around 5-10% of the actual capital that will be needed to ensure a payout of the guaranteed benefits over a lifetime.

[tvashtarkatena]

There's a whole lotta bullshit flying around these days, comparing compensation of McDonald's flippers with highly skilled state employees, etc...

 

I would agree, of course, that if we want the best government we can have (and why would we not?), then state employee compensation should be competitive and commensurate with private at every skill/experience level, and that, of course, includes retirement.

[rob]

My employer is giving me stress-related heart problems, FREE OF CHARGE! And then once I finally collapse and can't work, they'll just fire me and I lose my benefits. AWESOME!

 

Good thing they match my 401K, that'll help

[tvashtarkatena]

Hey Lance, talk to me after that happens. Until then, its probably best to appreciate what you've got, at least in part.

 

[Jim]

You're choice isn't it? Move on if you don't like it.

 

 

I'm in the private sector right now and have worked for the feds, the state, and as a IC. While I had better benefits and guranteed pay increases with the government several of us figured out the 20/80 rule. 20% of us did 80% of the work because once you got a reputation of not doing good work, folks would not use you - yet these clowns were as much fixtures as the furniture. And there were the folks who were busting their butts like me.

 

I can only go by my direct experience (I know Dilbert is inspired by private business) but private places I've worked hire and promote on merit. You don't work out - you're let go.

 

I'm ok with the more relaxed work atmosphere of government work, it makes for a better work-life balance, but other items just don't make fiscal sense. My 2 cents.

 

On the other hand - the crap like in WI is just fear-mongering and has no place in a rational discussion of cost-effictiveness.

[rob]

I can only go by my direct experience (I know Dilbert is inspired by private business) but private places I've worked hire and promote on merit. You don't work out - you're let go.

 

I've NEVER seen this in the corporate world. The more incompetent, the faster you are promoted. I think the Japanese invented that.

[JayB]

Perhaps you can think of the example of Ohio public workers as an antidote to your San Jose one, most workers live somewhere in between. I certainly appreciate your relatively level-headed approach and the rhetorical lip-service you're willing to pay to those things that really will make a difference, I really do. Unfortunately, the narratives and proposals being put forth across the country have far outstripped it. If you think the ideologues and their mini-me's like Jay who currently have the upper hand are going to stop at retirement contributions in their efforts to both untether themselves from the societies that've made them rich and depress labor costs across the board, you've been watching the wrong channel.

 

Jim's proposal to eliminate pensions and replace them with 401(K)'s is actually more "radical" than any of the concrete changes that Scott Walker made to existing pay and benefits, so it's puzzling to see that suddenly praised at "moderate." Put that on the table in this state and I can guarantee that "moderate" will never once appear in any of the responses from any of the public sector unions that currently get guaranteed pensions.

 

The other amusing thing about the hyperbole that's greeted the efforts to content with the fiscal reckoning is the rhetoric about what awaits the public if you take away the public sector employee's capacity to organize against them on the other side of the bargaining table. Compare that to the reality on display in the 2008 Pew report on state government performance, and compare Virginia to a state of your choosing. It's impossible to look at any data on public sector performance and argue that unions are necessary for the delivery of high-quality public services, let alone to do so in a cost-efficient manner.

 

http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/gpp_report_card.aspx

 

 

 

[prole]

Um, you just proved my point by using retirement contributions as a jumping off point for getting rid of unions. Thanks.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Um, you just proved my point by using retirement contributions as a jumping off point for getting rid of unions. Thanks.

 

You have a point?

[JayB]

Um, you just proved my point by using retirement contributions as a jumping off point for getting rid of unions. Thanks.

 

Keep the unions, get rid of collective bargaining. Same as with the Federal Government.

 

Here's more on the nightmare that awaits both public sector unions and the public once collective bargaining goes away in the form of a head-to-head comparison between Virginia and Illinois.

 

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/JLPP/upload/Hodges.pdf

 

The horror...the horror....

[j_b]

I think the answers have been - build the economy, sustain middle class jobs, offer universal health care, etc. While all great ideas, if you were discussing the issue with the mayor of San Jose, or many other jurisdictions, he would patiently lean across the desk and say "Yes, but what am I to do now, in my City?".

 

Still waiting for that answer.

 

There are no reasonable answers to fallacious questions. Cutting your hand off will stop your finger from bleeding, but you won't have stopped the bleeding. As matter of fact, you'll have made matters worse: permanently decreasing public employee compensation will further degrade public services and reinforce the race to the bottom.

[j_b]

But subsidising pensions - nope. There's lots of low-wage taxpayers struggling to put a retirement plan together - who then have to fund the above. Now, if you're suggesting EVERYONE get a pony....

 

pensions are part of employee compensations. Public employees usually trade part of their earning for a better benefit package. In other word, nobody is subsidizing public employee pensions.

 

Improving the condition of low wage taxpayers isn't going to occur through decreasing the attractiveness of public jobs and furthering the race to the bottom. In fact, the exact opposite is likely to result from cutting public employee earnings.