Whos right to on the mountain?

[Neri]

I agree with any ones right to be on the mountain. But, having the top of the line gear, doesn’t earn you the right that experience dose. Of course a poor hungry climbing bum like me, will envy all of these rich and deep pocketed latest patagucci and armic’teryx wearers, and shiny BD and CM gear flashers, that the most importent skill, (experience, they don’t have. But, they have the money to look like one who knows.

Here they are, going there, thinking that, all that top shelf gear that they just bought at REI or elsewhere for that manner will get them their most desirable summit dream. My complaint for the REI salespeople is, Yes the gear you sell, and the costumer buys, with no doubt, is the best money can buy; BUT, do you tell them that it won't do shit for them if they don’t know how to use it, or better yet how NOT to get themselves to a mess that will require the gear special properties. Personally I think its just sell sell sell .

I think that: Here, we all agree. WE have the experience. WE know how , the gear can serve us best and WE, learned this through “trial and error” hence the word EXPERIENCE. But, because we don’t have much of “the source of all evil”( =MONEY ) we just look down…. with envy, disgust and recognition, that once long time ago we were some what similar to these humans who doing the most pathetic slog up the mountain with beautiful head to tow brand name shining new gear.

 

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Neri Carmi

nericarmi@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Dru]

Lets put in a qualifier, before you can buy Arcteryx or patagucci you must appear in a cascades guidebook somewhere or otherwise be a PNW legend, solve all problems. rest of the pack can wear MEC baggies. is this misspelld enowh?

[EddieE]

I'm going back to climbing in wool knickers.

[This message has been edited by EddieE (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by EddieE (edited 08-22-2001).]

[erik]

i'll be nice

[This message has been edited by erik (edited 08-20-2001).]

[chelle]

Neri (and anyone else out there that thinks people with worn out gear reflect an air of experience)...

There are people who buy technical gear who aren't flush with cash. They just prefer to spend whatever money they have on it. And I'm not sure there's any correlation between age of gear and experience.

As for newbies in the mountains, we should be glad that so many people are taking up an interest in the outdoors. This will hopefully help to preserve these spaces for us and the generations to follow. If you come across people with less experience who may get themselves into trouble out there, offer some advice or ask them if they need help.

Experience is gained from being out there and trying things out, but many of us have also benefited from mentors. People who helped to teach us the way. Rather than take the attitude that we were an irritant and barrier to their fun outdoors, they passed on their knowledge and perspective.

Don't keep what you've learned to yourself. Unless you don't really have experience to pass it on...

p.s. REI and other retailers are not at fault for selling technical gear to people. If they didn't sell it, the companies who make it wouldn't survive and we'd all be stuck carrying/wearing 2.5 lb gore-tex shells.

The more gear sold, the more money into new development and we get lighter, more functional gear. A wool sweater may keep you warm when wet, but I'm sure you wouldn't trade your latest fleece sweater for one.

[Jman]

Right on, ehmmic! My sentiments exactly.

[hikerwa]

I have to agree with ehmmic, and add that I am fairly new to rock climbing, but have been doing alpine stuff for about 6+ years and have only been on rock for the past two, and not as often. I think that the equipment that I purchase, and yes I do buy shiny new cams and nuts, is something that my life depends on. I am not going to buy questionable gear. If its proven, and has a good reputation that I will consider buying it. I don't have money coming to me hand and fist, but I will pay for somthing that will last me a long time, and retire it and replace with more shiny new gear as needed.

Neri, I'm sure that you are comfortable climbing and hiking in your blue jeans and cotton t-shirts, and using less expensive gear, more power to you.

just my nickel...

sean

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

I clean out my bongs regularly

[Beck]

I don't know ehmmic, I've been going back to wearing a wool sweater and it's got way more comfort range than fleece...I'm behind the rest of your post, however but , really, in response to Neri's original question,why do the assholes in the mountains usually have all the best gear? Because it's compensation for their dissatisfaction in everyday life, the same reason an unhappy housewife has to brag over how much this or that home improvement cost.

But it's not the gear's fault. I wouldn't go judging anyone on how they look,or what label they wear, it's more by what they do and how they treat others at the same time.

[Dru]

I used to be jealous of other peoples spendy gear until I worked for the Dead'Bird. Then I realized dirtbags get cheap gear too if they are 'in the industry' in some way. It sure was nice getting Arcteryx stuff cheaper than similar MEC brand pieces.

I've generally found the spendier stuff to work better. It's the people walking along Robson Street with North Face Down jackets on in the rain that I don't get. But i dont get mad.. I laugh. Free comedy show. even better when the person you are laughing at is too clueless to understand why you laugh at them.

[jblakley]

Yeah I think there is a correlation here. I know when I was new to climbing I really liked the gear. Eventually though the gear becomes just a means to an end and now I try to only buy gear I know I will use. I try to avoid climbing with people who put more emphasis on color coordinating all their clothing/gear than actually getting out and doing stuff. I definitely think this is not limited to climbing though. I used to get great satisfaction into dusting someone on a bike with all the latest Tour De France poser wear. Ahh well to each his own.

[freak]

Ya dude clean your bongs,

I get bummed when I see some guy with full on mounaineering garb In l-worth TRing something, IM talkin gaiters and a full pack doing dynos on the 4th class blocks on mountaineers dome,.. WHat about dudes who like have matching parana pants and parana raver shirt. that stuff kinda bums me out too, I guess it all doesent matter I;ve seen bumblies and badasses wearing funny expensive lookin stuff. I watched a guy onsight Leave it to beaver 5.12 r IN J-tree wearing all dope arcterix stuff, made me want to wear it!! he he hahhah, nic

[freak]

i forrgot to add that your bad ass when your gear is really nice and you live in your car. It aint no trust fund ride either. nic

[pen]

freak, have another toke dude and settle down. what the hell difference do the clothes make? anyone that wants to wear comfy old shit~more power to em. heh, the fancy high dollar stuff's nice, no doubt, and some folks that wear them are too. so screw whatever someone wears and get on with it.

[pen]

heh, mcdonald's is hirin. no excuse to live in da car dude. grab a soc. sec. # and get wit da program.

[Dru]

i dig that thrift store look for cragging but sometimes poly/cotton wage slave uniform shirts and bell bottoms don't hack it for alpine north faces. funny about gaiters on mountaineers dome though freak. you should have taken a picture for us?

HEY VIKTOR: that roof crack on mountie dome aint no hand crack like you say in your guidebook. that thing takes #3 and 4 Camalots! somebody got big hands?

[chelle]

Beck - perhaps I haven't found the "right" wool to wear. I wouldn't go back to what was in my closet.

Fill me in. But then I'd just have to save more money to ditch my Mountain Hardware power fleece shirt...

Michelle

[mattp]

Michelle -

For a light sweater or as an alternative expedition weight top, go to the salvation army and get some cashmere or merino (smart wool makes wool underwear that is pretty nice, too, but it costs real $). For more serious warmth, there are synthetics that are much lighter and more compact than fleece, and for real warmth, try down.

- Mattp

[hikerwa]

I will agree with michelle about the Mtn.Hardwear fleece. I am personally of the opinion of give me anything that is made from plastic soda bottles. natural stuff gets smelly, fleece doesn't (unless you smoke or hang our by a fire). The only thing natural I have is goosedown, all else manmade, and proud of it.

sean

[carolyn]

I find it kind of funny that when I remember back to highschool and how I used to get mad at the people who were able to wear the REAL "izod" shirts and addidas shoes (hehehehe, that sounds soooo silly now). They were the "rich preps" (sorry, Im not much of a 'labeler', but I remember that being the label they had). I always wondered what made them so special because they had such nice clothes and I had to wear the hand me downs?

Later in life I learned (thank gwad!) that what you wear doesnt make you who you are. these folks who had all the good clothes, cars, bikes, etc were people who had money. Some of them were assholes. Some of them were nice. All of them had insecurities, strenghts and weaknesses - just like me!

I guess this post kind of reminds me of the highschool or college experiences Im sure many of us had.

Clothing and gear does not make us more or less of a climber. Its our own insecurities which make us think that we need the good clothes or we dont need the good clothes to be labeled a "climber".

Once we get more confident in our abilities and/or our personalities we start realizing what is right for us individually and what others have or dont have wont bother us so much.

If you wear wool, fleece, or whatever because you have found that to be the best for YOU then so be it. If you are wearing it to be different and "cool" you are losing out. Heck, I know a guy who leads dogsledding trips in N. Minnesota and wears cotton - everything. Crazy? Rebel? Stupid? Naw, just found that it works better for him (still dont get it, but whatever works! )

Now, from a "newbie" (can I tell ya all I am beginning to hate that word) I will explain this...

When looking for appropriate clothing to work outdoors in the winters here in MN I immediately looked at the expensive, REI, North Face, Columbia, Patagonia, etc. I thought thats what I was SUPPOSE to have in order to stay warm and dry. I bought some of it to test it out. I liked some of what I got and Ive given away or stored others. I had to learn by trail and error what works best for me. Maybe a lot of the people who you run into on the mountians with this expensive gear are just trying it out for the first couple times to see if it is a right fit for them. In time they might realize its not necessary for them...then again, they might realize it is.

this is getting long, but I feel the need to continue..

A great example with me might be the fact that I have a silly, bulky looking edelrid helmet that I have inherited from work. At times I think, "shit I better go out and buy one of those Petzl helmets so I dont look like a moron". Then again, who the hell cares. If the helmet fits and serves its purpose then why bother? Maybe someday I will be able to afford or find another helmet which I like better. Maybe not. My point being, a lot of emphasis is put on not looking dumb (just like in highschool)...therefore my own insecurities lead me to think it is necessary to go out and get the "hip" looking gear. So I go up into the mountains for one of the first times wearing my petzl helmet and whatever other clothing/equipment I thought was necessary to look like a climber. I dont know what I am doing. I look like and idiot. And then I get judged by others for being one of those gear heads who doesnt know how to climb.

See how that becomes a no win situation for someone new to all of this? It would be easy for me to get defensive or look "cocky".

I guess I just hope that we can all get past the "looks" and remember why people are in the mountains -newbie or not....because they LOVE it!

quote:

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"And from the other hand why a newbie’s don’t take upon themselves to learn a little more in depth the essential skills before hitting the trail?"

---

Ive been given two trains of thoughts on how to learn...take a course or two and/or go out and experiment, learn by trail and error. I personally do NOT have the money to hire guides or take a bunch of courses. I have had to beg and plead people to take me out. I have had to do things solo. I have read books and asked numerous people questions. I KNOW I have made some silly mistakes that could have been costly. Who here hasnt? I dont believe there is anything that can completely prepare you for the mountains. You can know the basics, but from there it is all about experience. And you dont get the experience by reading a book or having a guide take you thru things step by step.

Finally, you wonder where in the industry sets the standards? Well, you, me, and everyone else involved with enjoying the outdoors set the standards. No one else. We are the ones who are responsible. Not an easy pill to swallow at times.

Sorry for the length of this post. I appreciate those of you who made it thru and allowing me to express my opinions on this topic.

be well,

be safe,

carolyn

 

[Neri]

I think I have to simplify the dilemma /post for you. My question is why do climbers or outdoors enthusiasts do act like a cocky bustard sometimes? And from the other hand why a newbie’s don’t take upon themselves to learn a little more in depth the essential skills before hitting the trail?

Where is the industry spreading it's gospel? It seems that the emphasis it’s on the wrong thing in my opinion

[This message has been edited by Neri (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Jman]

Neri,

Your questions could apply to almost any sport, pursuit, situation, etc. There are rude, arrogant, egotistical people in this world - and they are not limited to just the climbing arena. Same as there are kind, humble, helpful people who are content with themselves and willing to assist the inexperienced with anything in life.

To illustrate, drive down I-5 and you'll see people who "never took it upon themselves to learn a little more in depth the essential skills before hitting the [road]."

People are people.

Industry is business.

[freak]

YOu know your bad ass or a dumb ass when,

A. you have those Chek republic cams, (sp) those are bad ass, Especially when they are kinda old and you've tied your own slings on em.

B. WHen you find gear dropped off the grand wall and think whoa this is a bomber peice dude.

C. When you buy gear that has been dropped off the grand wall.

hehhehhehhehhehheh nic

[Dru]

When you get an aid rack by rapping down obscure lines and bootying all the 20 year old fixed pins!

"wow look at this bong, what a beauty, its hardly even rusty!"

[Matt]

Look at the similarities between Neri's post and this:

When George W. Bush was asked what Independence Day meant to him, he replied, "Well, it's an unimaginable honor to be the President during the Fourth of July of this country. It means what these words say, for starters. The great inalienable rights of our country. We're blessed with such values in America. And I-- it's-- I'm a proud man to be the nation based upon such wonderful values... But the true greatness of America are the people."

I previously compared Neri's English to our President's without considering that Neri is not a native English speaker. Sorry, Neri, I should not have insulted you. Please forgive my insensitivity.

[This message has been edited by Matt (edited 08-21-2001).]