Fux Freakout

[tvashtarkatena]

I choose to plunge a fork deep into my forehead and scream.

[prole]

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I choose to plunge a fork deep into my forehead and scream.

 

YES!! Keep it up Bill!

[ivan]

turkey has managed to make islam and democracy work pretty well together despite the presence of crazy fundies in their population - egypt might be able to copy them, hopefully setting aside turkey's minor genocide

[tvashtarkatena]

Most of the democratic world has secular governments and freedom of religion. It shouldn't be too hard to cherry pick from these numerous examples to get a new government started. Religiously based parties can exist within these systems, provided there is a separation of church and state regarding policy.

 

The existence of our own GOP proves this, although they've never quite gotten the whole separation thing.

[Kimmo]

Kimmo has kindly shared the new word 'sharia' with us, likely just one of many pearls harvested from his copious research.

 

 

Here's another word: Ramadan.

 

It might be enough of a reason for you to convert.

[Kimmo]

You'd be better off reading about other nations in the Middle East past and present in which democratic reforms, the creation of strong secular institutions and building capacities amongst moderate and left elements in those societies have both moderated the power of radical organizations and undermined their appeal. The containment through autocracy/occupation model has done the opposite.

 

which countries come to mind, and how was the transition instituted?

[ivan]

You'd be better off reading about other nations in the Middle East past and present in which democratic reforms, the creation of strong secular institutions and building capacities amongst moderate and left elements in those societies have both moderated the power of radical organizations and undermined their appeal. The containment through autocracy/occupation model has done the opposite.

 

which countries come to mind, and how was the transition instituted?

turkey and indonesia come to mind

[billcoe]

I choose to plunge a fork deep into my forehead and scream.

 

Schweet! You should Utube this as it would be a total gnar thing to do and be a rad vid.

[Kimmo]

I choose to plunge a fork deep into my forehead and scream.

 

i am a big supporter of your new-found career as performance artist.

 

it might lead to a rather short life, but i can't think of any down-side....

[Kimmo]

You'd be better off reading about other nations in the Middle East past and present in which democratic reforms, the creation of strong secular institutions and building capacities amongst moderate and left elements in those societies have both moderated the power of radical organizations and undermined their appeal. The containment through autocracy/occupation model has done the opposite.

 

which countries are you thinking of?

[prole]

You'd be better off reading about other nations in the Middle East past and present in which democratic reforms, the creation of strong secular institutions and building capacities amongst moderate and left elements in those societies have both moderated the power of radical organizations and undermined their appeal. The containment through autocracy/occupation model has done the opposite.

 

which countries come to mind, and how was the transition instituted?

turkey and indonesia come to mind

 

Well? Though not without its problems, Turkey is the model that most commentators optimistic about the potential for democratic reforms in Egypt point to. The post-colonial era is rife with examples of vibrant secular movements and broad based national coalitions that provided an alternative to Western dominated authoritarianism and pre-modern religious and tribal politics. Unfortunately, they were suffocated in the crib or encouraged to morph into dictatorships in the name of fighting the Commies. At any rate, the Cold War-turned-GWOT security order is unravelling and the US's policy of propping up autocrats is clearly untenable with regards to our money, our values, and most importantly, their people. The Egyptian uprising (whether it's a revolution remains to be seen) and the society itself have a number of qualities that suggest potentialities very different than Iran '79 or Hamas '06. The US should be building relationships and capacities among the secularists and moderates at the forefront of the uprising rather than continuing along the path to "containment" through military dictatorship. Not doing so will simply thrust potential allies into the arms of better organized, less savory actors, when they realize that Twitter and Facebook do not a revolution make.

[JayB]

The fact that second generation Muslims who have spent the entirety of their lives in liberal Western democracies have been conspicuous participants in terror plots all over the world also negates this thesis. Ditto for western converts with no ancestral or cultural connection to the middle east whatsoever.

 

Terror including bombing of peaceful crowds is a tactic that has been used throughout time, including today by judeo-christians. You should consider reading some history.

 

There were multiple parties using explosives in, say, France that killed civilians from '40-45. Clearly there's no means by which one can differentiate the various actors based on the ends they were pursuing if they all used explosive weaponry to achieve them.

[JayB]

You'd be better off reading about other nations in the Middle East past and present in which democratic reforms, the creation of strong secular institutions and building capacities amongst moderate and left elements in those societies have both moderated the power of radical organizations and undermined their appeal. The containment through autocracy/occupation model has done the opposite.

 

which countries come to mind, and how was the transition instituted?

turkey and indonesia come to mind

 

 

 

Well? Though not without its problems, Turkey is the model that most commentators optimistic about the potential for democratic reforms in Egypt point to. The post-colonial era is rife with examples of vibrant secular movements and broad based national coalitions that provided an alternative to Western dominated authoritarianism and pre-modern religious and tribal politics. Unfortunately, they were suffocated in the crib or encouraged to morph into dictatorships in the name of fighting the Commies. At any rate, the Cold War-turned-GWOT security order is unravelling and the US's policy of propping up autocrats is clearly untenable with regards to our money, our values, and most importantly, their people. The Egyptian uprising (whether it's a revolution remains to be seen) and the society itself have a number of qualities that suggest potentialities very different than Iran '79 or Hamas '06. The US should be building relationships and capacities among the secularists and moderates at the forefront of the uprising rather than continuing along the path to "containment" through military dictatorship. Not doing so will simply thrust potential allies into the arms of better organized, less savory actors, when they realize that Twitter and Facebook do not a revolution make.

 

Mustafa Kemal Attaturk wasn't authoritarian?

 

[ivan]

Mustafa Kemal Attaturk wasn't authoritarian?

even if you're living in an autonomous collective, if your name is "mustafa" there's a good chance you'll ending up calling the shots by weeks end

[JayB]

For Kimmo:

 

http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf

 

Mixed bag for liberalism at the very best.

[JayB]

You'd be better off reading about other nations in the Middle East past and present in which democratic reforms, the creation of strong secular institutions and building capacities amongst moderate and left elements in those societies have both moderated the power of radical organizations and undermined their appeal. The containment through autocracy/occupation model has done the opposite.

 

which countries come to mind, and how was the transition instituted?

turkey and indonesia come to mind

 

Authoritarian technocrats? Oh wait....

 

 

 

 

[j_b]

The fact that second generation Muslims who have spent the entirety of their lives in liberal Western democracies have been conspicuous participants in terror plots all over the world also negates this thesis. Ditto for western converts with no ancestral or cultural connection to the middle east whatsoever.

Terror including bombing of peaceful crowds is a tactic that has been used throughout time, including today by judeo-christians. You should consider reading some history.

 

There were multiple parties using explosives in, say, France that killed civilians from '40-45. Clearly there's no means by which one can differentiate the various actors based on the ends they were pursuing if they all used explosive weaponry to achieve them.

 

I fail to see how your answer addresses the fact that all culture/religions have used terror in the recent past, which points to your singling out Muslims as thinly veiled islamophobia.

[JayB]

The fact that second generation Muslims who have spent the entirety of their lives in liberal Western democracies have been conspicuous participants in terror plots all over the world also negates this thesis. Ditto for western converts with no ancestral or cultural connection to the middle east whatsoever.

Terror including bombing of peaceful crowds is a tactic that has been used throughout time, including today by judeo-christians. You should consider reading some history.

 

There were multiple parties using explosives in, say, France that killed civilians from '40-45. Clearly there's no means by which one can differentiate the various actors based on the ends they were pursuing if they all used explosive weaponry to achieve them.

 

I fail to see how your answer addresses the fact that all culture/religions have used terror in the recent past, which points to your singling out Muslims as thinly veiled islamophobia.

 

I clearly see how your "Hey - other people use explosives in ways that have killed people" demonstrates a massive incapacity to make elementary distinctions between physically equivalent acts.

 

Let's suppose that there had been a plot by a cell of Ted Kacynski's disciples to fly airplanes into the WTC, the Pentagon, and Congress and in each and every case radical Islamists had fought their way into the cockpits and managed to get their hands on the flight controls at the last moment with the intention of steering the planes away from buildings holding thousands of civilians that they inadvertently flew the planes into.

 

There would be no physical difference between this scenario and what actually happened on 9/11. But anyone - other than a relativist progressive - could clearly ascertain a massive moral difference between the actions of the radical Islamists that flew the planes into the buildings with the intention of slaughering as many civilians as possible, and the fictional Islamists who tried to steer the planes away from the buildings in an effort to spare as many civilians as possible.

 

In virtually every conflict, the warring parties have recourse to the same weapons and make use of very similar tactics, but if one group is employing the said weapons and tactics with the intention of constructing a totalitarian slave-state that they can use as a launching pad for a global genocide campaign, and the other is using the same tactics to secure a liberal democratic order then it's quite possible to make moral distinctions between them. Do you find it impossible to pick sides in the US civil war?

 

Even if your claim were true that all cultures and religions had employed violence and terror to further their aims in the recent past, it would still be possible to make moral distinctions between them based on the frequency, depravity, and magnitude of such actions and the ends which they were attempting to secure with them.

 

Your other claims about "Judeo Christian" armies employing various tactics is another example of an incapacity to make elementary distinctions. An army fielded by a secular, democratic republic in which the majority of the citizens happen to be Christian and which hasn't been fielded to advance any particular religious enterprise is something entirely different from a group composed exclusively of of religious zealots that uses violent tactics in accordance with or in an effort to advance a particular religious end.

 

 

[j_b]

Cut the collateral damage crap, JayB. Everybody half informed knew that attacking Iraq would result in countless civilian death, as it did for the prior 10 year embargo. These are war crimes, which is terror by definition.

[j_b]

and there is of course even more deliberate use of terror:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

[j_b]

Since it's Reagan's birthday, let's celebrate his use of terror:

 

Contra Terror in Nicaragua: Report of a Fact-finding Mission: September 1984-January 1985

http://www.amazon.com/Contra-Terror-Nicaragua-Fact-finding-1984-January/dp/0896083128

 

 

[j_b]

do I need to go on? because there is a lot more where that came from.

[tvashtarkatena]

No, don't go on, you're not going to shake Jay's myopic American viewpoint.

[prole]

Let's suppose that there had been a plot by a cell of Ted Kacynski's disciples to fly airplanes into the WTC, the Pentagon, and Congress and in each and every case radical Islamists had fought their way into the cockpits and managed to get their hands on the flight controls at the last moment with the intention of steering the planes away from buildings holding thousands of civilians that they inadvertently flew the planes into.

 

That would be stupid, let's not.