archenemy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 We have destroyed Iraq forever by not allowing them their own revolution. In our paternal/imperial zeal, we've taken that self generated rebirth, which provides a foundation of strength, shared values, and unity for any society, away from them forever. They will always be a colonial frankenstein, repeatedly beaten down by people far, far away with other things on their minds. I am interested in this part of your statement. It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of what you say. By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. (Please forgive my crappy spelling, I am too lazy to spell check.) If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. We, too, were once a colonial abomination. We fought. Other countries got involved on many different levels, but we still did our thing, right? Ultimately, no one "allowed" us to do anything nor did anyone "take away" anything from us. That's because it is no more possible to take away something that is self-generated than it is to make or destroy mass or energy. The desire to be in control of one's own life is an immutable element in the human nature; and although an individual will die in pursuit of that self determination, the desire itself will always remain. So I guess all I am saying is that I don't believe that Iraq's revolution is over. It would be easier to believe that if anything, that revolution is just starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 everything i learend about fighting evil i learned from big trouble in little china fucking 6 demon bags! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 everything i learend about fighting evil i learned from big trouble in little china fucking 6 demon bags! Feel pretty good. I'm not, uh, I'm not scared at all. I just feel kind of... feel kind of invincible. Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me? It's you ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Makes me think of that Rat City Rollergirl named "Hotflash". Roller Derby rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Makes me think of that Rat City Rollergirl named "Hotflash". Roller Derby rocks. is she meopausal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I don't understand. Are you saying you were not being serious? It wasn't obvious, especially since many people around here claim to have some ability to understand people's psychology from their writing (or rather what they read into it). Anyway, sorry if I jumped to conclusions. i'd like jayb to actually, for once, state his position clearly, without the headache inducing madness that masquerades as principled ideology. to accomplish this end, i thought i would give him the benefit of the doubt, but evidently this didn't interest him. not that i necessarily blame him.... Position on what? Time is generally the limiting reagent, not interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 We have destroyed Iraq forever by not allowing them their own revolution. In our paternal/imperial zeal, we've taken that self generated rebirth, which provides a foundation of strength, shared values, and unity for any society, away from them forever. They will always be a colonial frankenstein, repeatedly beaten down by people far, far away with other things on their minds. I am interested in this part of your statement. It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of what you say. By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. (Please forgive my crappy spelling, I am too lazy to spell check.) If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. We, too, were once a colonial abomination. We fought. Other countries got involved on many different levels, but we still did our thing, right? Ultimately, no one "allowed" us to do anything nor did anyone "take away" anything from us. That's because it is no more possible to take away something that is self-generated than it is to make or destroy mass or energy. The desire to be in control of one's own life is an immutable element in the human nature; and although an individual will die in pursuit of that self determination, the desire itself will always remain. So I guess all I am saying is that I don't believe that Iraq's revolution is over. It would be easier to believe that if anything, that revolution is just starting. It can take a long time to get past the humiliation of being invaded and occupied by a foreign power. So much better if that step is never taken. Recognition of this isn't patronizing, it's just recognizing a fundamental aspect of human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 We have destroyed Iraq forever by not allowing them their own revolution. In our paternal/imperial zeal, we've taken that self generated rebirth, which provides a foundation of strength, shared values, and unity for any society, away from them forever. They will always be a colonial frankenstein, repeatedly beaten down by people far, far away with other things on their minds. I am interested in this part of your statement. It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of what you say. By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. (Please forgive my crappy spelling, I am too lazy to spell check.) If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. We, too, were once a colonial abomination. We fought. Other countries got involved on many different levels, but we still did our thing, right? Ultimately, no one "allowed" us to do anything nor did anyone "take away" anything from us. That's because it is no more possible to take away something that is self-generated than it is to make or destroy mass or energy. The desire to be in control of one's own life is an immutable element in the human nature; and although an individual will die in pursuit of that self determination, the desire itself will always remain. So I guess all I am saying is that I don't believe that Iraq's revolution is over. It would be easier to believe that if anything, that revolution is just starting. It can take a long time to get past the humiliation of being invaded and occupied by a foreign power. So much better if that step is never taken. Recognition of this isn't patronizing, it's just recognizing a fundamental aspect of human nature. I could agree with that. Although there are "benefits" as well (if you can call them that). For example, having an external threat can act as a powerful catalyst to internal unification. It helps people ban together and forget their infighting. It might also help a group really examine and define who they are and what they want. It forces them to declare that to others. What you said was that their unity and strength has been taken away forever. I just think that is a bit strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 We have destroyed Iraq forever by not allowing them their own revolution. In our paternal/imperial zeal, we've taken that self generated rebirth, which provides a foundation of strength, shared values, and unity for any society, away from them forever. They will always be a colonial frankenstein, repeatedly beaten down by people far, far away with other things on their minds. I am interested in this part of your statement. It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of what you say. By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. (Please forgive my crappy spelling, I am too lazy to spell check.) If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. We, too, were once a colonial abomination. We fought. Other countries got involved on many different levels, but we still did our thing, right? Ultimately, no one "allowed" us to do anything nor did anyone "take away" anything from us. That's because it is no more possible to take away something that is self-generated than it is to make or destroy mass or energy. The desire to be in control of one's own life is an immutable element in the human nature; and although an individual will die in pursuit of that self determination, the desire itself will always remain. So I guess all I am saying is that I don't believe that Iraq's revolution is over. It would be easier to believe that if anything, that revolution is just starting. It can take a long time to get past the humiliation of being invaded and occupied by a foreign power. So much better if that step is never taken. Recognition of this isn't patronizing, it's just recognizing a fundamental aspect of human nature. I could agree with that. Although there are "benefits" as well (if you can call them that). For example, having an external threat can act as a powerful catalyst to internal unification. It helps people ban together and forget their infighting. It might also help a group really examine and define who they are and what they want. It forces them to declare that to others. What you said was that their unity and strength has been taken away forever. I just think that is a bit strong. If that external threat completely destroys your society, however, that's usually a recipe for chaos and civil war. Hence, Iraq. I never said their unity and strength had been taken away forever - I said the chance for their own revolution, and the unifying pride that comes with that, is gone forever. Two very different statements. It's kind of like living with an abuser. Yeah, the parts of you that survive might be 'stronger' for it, or you just might remain really fucked up; however it turns out, it's just way better if it never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 It's kind of like living with an abuser. Yeah, the parts of you that survive might be 'stronger' for it, or you just might remain really fucked up; however it turns out, it's just way better if it never happened. Nice summation of your presence on cc.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 You don't know that, really. I mean, if we hadn't been dogged by Brits, we may not have written the Articles of Confederation and later the Constitution. And without continued pressure, we wouldn't have fought the war of 1812, bringing the unchecked growth of partisan animosity to a halt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 comparing what we did to Iraq to pre revolutionary America is...imaginative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 If that external threat completely destroys your society, however, that's usually a recipe for chaos and civil war. Hence, Iraq. I never said their unity and strength had been taken away forever - I said the chance for their own revolution, and the unifying pride that comes with that, is gone forever. Two very different statements. It's kind of like living with an abuser. Yeah, the parts of you that survive might be 'stronger' for it, or you just might remain really fucked up; however it turns out, it's just way better if it never happened. Geeeeezz, where the hell do you come up this shit? Just pulling it out of your ass hasn't worked well for you in the past, not sure why you keep embarrassing yourself here and now. Pretending to be really, really smart on the internets is one thing, demonstrating intellect and a well-considered idea is quite another. Maybe that new girlfriend will smarten you up just a little. More likely, she'll smarten up first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 comparing what we did to Iraq to pre revolutionary America is...imaginative. Not really that far of a stretch, is it? I know most about the history of our own country, and I know most about living in this particular post-revolutionary country. What other country would I be able to use for comparison that wouldn't trigger your automatic response of, "Have you ever lived or visited CountryX?"? You really put folks in a bind by discrediting them for whatever example/comparison they use. Instead of being dismissive, try borrowing someone else's analogy and see where it takes you. I promise you that it won't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Position on what? Time is generally the limiting reagent, not interest. Bullshit. If time was the limiting factor you would address the salient points formulated by the opposite side instead of rehashing ad inifinitum the same debunked ideas in long-winded monologues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Nah. It's more like you've misinterpreted my limited initial opinion - you're arguing essentially with yourself, so I've given up on the discussion. Perhaps you and FW might continue it. And...what if historical analogies are always ridiculous, by definition. It didn't happen. Edited February 15, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 2 dead and more than 10,000 protesting in Bahrain. Next on the list? I was kind of hoping it would be Iran, but Bahrain's good. Meanwhile, Jordan's monarch claims that 'it can't happen here'. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 By saying that we have "not allowed" a people their own revolution is an inheirently patriarchal stance. acknowledging 150 years of western colonialism and imperialism in the ME is 'inherently patriarchal'? If a person really does see another group as or another individual as self-determining, then that person cannot assume that have the ability to override that self-determination. In other words, we Westerners cannot take away something which we do not own and cannot control from someone else. The fact that we seem to think so speaks only to our egos. the $3 trillion we are spending to control Iraq and Afghanistan only speak to our egos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yeah, mine was a simple statement of historical fact. Any 'patriarchy' read into it resides in the mind of the responder - who apparently seeks a debate where there is none to be had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Position on what? Time is generally the limiting reagent, not interest. Bullshit. If time was the limiting factor you would address the salient points formulated by the opposite side instead of rehashing ad inifinitum the same debunked ideas in long-winded monologues. What was your argument again - there have never been left wing apologists for communist regimes, both before and after the major purges, famines, etc? Duranty, Hobsbawm, etc x 10^X. Since the factual record is clear on this point - speculating about what motivated them to do so right up to the fall of the Berlin Wall and beyond would be more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 flap, flap, flap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 What was your argument again - there have never been left wing apologists for communist regimes, both before and after the major purges, famines, etc? Duranty, Hobsbawm, etc x 10^X. Since the factual record is clear on this point - speculating about what motivated them to do so right up to the fall of the Berlin Wall and beyond would be more interesting. we didn't talk about this recently. You are cheating again but your diversion won't make up for the fact that your thinly veiled islamophobia has no rational basis. Contra terror isn't more benevolent than terror by islamists, for example. Terrorists committing suicide are not more evil than those who get away with it, despite your and Harris' twisted logic and demagoguery. etc .. all points that you have yet to address. Cheater. and I never said what you just claimed I said. There were/are left wing apologists for stalinism but I personally always fought them as hard as I fight extremist libertarians like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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