Little Si Fixed Draws

[dom]

Thanks Orion!

[CascadeClimber]

I don't hear a lot of complaints about the bolts and chains, in part because they are not readily visible from the trails. But when we start leaving tat and other brightly colored garbage it can become a problem.

 

I am not sure if you were trying to imply this or not, but I just want to clarify one thing. For the most part, no additional fixed draws were added. Mostly it was a remove and replace operation.

 

Carry on...

 

Orion

 

You mean on Saturday, right? Because it seems that a lot has been added in recent years.

 

To be clear: I'm not at all dumping on your effort to make the place safe. A lot of the original bolts and chains were put up by people on a very tight budget and replacing worn-out/unsafe gear is important. My point is that the fixed draws aren't necessary to climb the routes and should therefore be kept to a minimum, just like our overall impact. Making it 'easier' isn't, in my opinion, enough of a reason to leave draws behind. It's also easier for people with dogs to leave turds on the trail.

 

The beer drinking should have been kept off the trail, though. This just isn't a good presentation to other users.

[orion_sonya]

You mean on Saturday, right? Because it seems that a lot has been added in recent years.

 

To be clear: I'm not at all dumping on your effort to make the place safe. A lot of the original bolts and chains were put up by people on a very tight budget and replacing worn-out/unsafe gear is important. My point is that the fixed draws aren't necessary to climb the routes and should therefore be kept to a minimum, just like our overall impact. Making it 'easier' isn't, in my opinion, enough of a reason to leave draws behind. It's also easier for people with dogs to leave turds on the trail.

 

The beer drinking should have been kept off the trail, though. This just isn't a good presentation to other users.

 

Yes, I meant on Saturday we primarily replaced hardware as opposed to adding hardware. I have only been climbing at Si for 6 or 7 years, but the amount of fixed draws is about the same as is has always been during that time.

 

I am not sure what to tell you about the beer... I am pretty sure there is no DNR rules against alcohol there. I will check it out though as I do enjoy having a beer for the hike out.

[micah humphrey]

Hey Orion,

Thanks for your amazing comittment to keeping Little si a safe place for everyone who wants to climb at their limit/just have a great time climbing and enjoying the outside environment. I'm not entirely sure how many routes you equipped with new draws but I think I had a couple draws on the top of Hydro? Neon green and pink nylon dog bones? Plus I might have had one on Chronic (but really, who hasn't?) blue nylon dog bone, and I think you fused one of mine with yours to make a super draw for Techno. If these aren't the ones you replaced no worries. I actually don't really care what happens to them which is why I put them up on these routes, and the fact that I love Techno, Hydro, and Chronic (even though a redpoint alludes me at the moment).

Again, thanks SO much for all of the hard work and investment you've put into one of my absolute favorite places to climb anywhere.

Cheers, and I'll see you out there!

[stevetimetravlr]

Permanent draws at smith would suck.

There have been perma draws on many of the harder climbs at Smith for years. For instance, Chain Reaction. They can't be to intrusive then if you climb there and haven't noticed them, right?

[orion_sonya]

Hey Orion,

Thanks for your amazing comittment to keeping Little si a safe place for everyone who wants to climb at their limit/just have a great time climbing and enjoying the outside environment. I'm not entirely sure how many routes you equipped with new draws but I think I had a couple draws on the top of Hydro? Neon green and pink nylon dog bones? Plus I might have had one on Chronic (but really, who hasn't?) blue nylon dog bone, and I think you fused one of mine with yours to make a super draw for Techno. If these aren't the ones you replaced no worries. I actually don't really care what happens to them which is why I put them up on these routes, and the fact that I love Techno, Hydro, and Chronic (even though a redpoint alludes me at the moment).

Again, thanks SO much for all of the hard work and investment you've put into one of my absolute favorite places to climb anywhere.

Cheers, and I'll see you out there!

 

Thanks Micah - We did replace the fixed draws on all of those routes, so i may have your draws in the mega pile of tat. Let me know if you want to arrange a time to look through it.

 

Orion

[Pete_H]

I rarely climb at Little Si, but I'm pro dogs, pro bolts, and pro beer!

[Peter_Puget]

And which group do you think uses that area more: Day hikers going up Little Si year-round, or sport climbers who show up from May to October?

 

 

And the "too lazy to find it" comment? Really dude, your position is rife with hypocrisy. How lazy do you have to be to not be willing to carry a few quickdraws up a grid-bolted sport route?

 

Another rockin' CC.com thread! In general I am not a big lover of WWI. Years ago it was because I didn't like the rock and lately it's because my ego keeps getting crushed there - (it's still not my fav kind of climbing.) Still I thought I would make a couple of comments.

 

1) Lots of climbers go there it the winter. ((Link ) Many of the people I usually climb with go there mostly between November and April.

 

2) Many of the routes on WWI are pretty daring for being "grid bolted." If you think WWI is only grid bolted (assuming you are knowledgable about the routes) you a pretty bold climber.

[efellis]

Nice work up there Orion et al~

This was a huge service to the folks who currently get out there and for those future generations of up and comers looking for accessible sport routes to cut their teeth on.

 

To the detractors...I been have climbing up there since 1995 and the 20 year old "burdo bolts" had to go. They were cheap hardware that saved the installer a few bucks, and chain-link hangers result in shear forces in excess of what the bolts were designed for. Thanks for taking the time to replace not only the bolts on the top end routes, but on all routes that had substandard hardware.

 

On top of the bolts, A LOT of those fixed draws (especially) on Technorigine and Chronic were ticking time bombs. My recollection was that they were draws that folks (including myself) "retired" by leaving them on their warm ups. Substandard gear to start with...Although most pople have no trouble sending all climbs at WW1 putting the draws in, the fixed gear on the popular lines sure is convenient, and saves people's personal gear from getting trashed by the lappers or after work crowd. The climb-tech hardware will be appreciated by anyone who gets on those lines, and will go a long way towards making sure people don't end up in he emergency room. Huge props to the Climb-tech for the discount and to the people who donated the cash!

[Kimmo]

Actually in 2002 the NPS addressed fixed draws in the Obed Climbing Management plan and while not banning them, they said they need to blend in with the area. However in 2005 they went a step further and banned fixed draws at the New. It's only a matter of time before a similar management policy is applied to USFS lands.

 

the above has been something i've been indirectly alluding to. without doubt, i enjoy the convenience of permadraws, even whilst having some reservations, but if "we" get too cavalier about their right to exist, we might be facing the same prospects as the aforementioned areas.

 

I'd rather remain low-key about them, and not announce their placement on bulletin boards. most here wouldn't have even known about them without this thread!

[Kimmo]

 

2) Many of the routes on WWI are pretty daring for being "grid bolted." If you think WWI is only grid bolted (assuming you are knowledgable about the routes) you a pretty bold climber.

 

really? which ones? i can't think of many (any!) routes without a bolt every 6 to 10 feet.

[Rad]

Some of the bolts and anchors on Reptiles and Jug or Not were pretty scary, with rusty chain links notched into grooves in the rock, levering on old expansion bolts. If/when it's time for anchor replacement on these or other routes I'll come help, or at least throw down some coin for hardware. Thanks again.

[Cobra_Commander]

Permanent draws at smith would suck.

There have been perma draws on many of the harder climbs at Smith for years. For instance, Chain Reaction. They can't be to intrusive then if you climb there and haven't noticed them, right?

 

Those are not permanent. And I notice them. But there's a chance they're going away at some point. Perhaps we should have some permanent crash pads out there too, for safety's sake? Some of those routes are getting pretty sporty at the start. Might as well make the gym transformation complete.

[Peter_Puget]

Lizard King

[Peter_Puget]

Oval Orifice

 

 

I get the names mixed up on a lot of the routes.

[Peter_Puget]

Doesn't the final section of the .14a off of Psychosomatic have a runout section?

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

Another way to view it is how many climbers leading Butterfingers, Cosmic Debris, Tales of Power in the Valley place gear more than 10 feet or so apart - these routes all can eat up pro so you can stretch it a bit and be certain you can plan gear whenever you stop. The answer from my observation is very few.

[Kimmo]

Doesn't the final section of the .14a off of Psychosomatic have a runout section?

 

 

never been on it, along with the two other routes you mention. lizard king and oval orifice i'll get on this fall, and perhaps the other you mention, but i've never heard of any significant runouts from people who have climbed them.

 

why are we talking about this again?!?

[RuMR]

I bolted LIzard King...

 

not overbolted, not underbolted...probably 15- 20 feet max between bolts...but, you are at the top, so they are still pretty big whips due to ropestretch...probably on the order of 30-40 footers if you pitch, but the hard climbing is always right near a bolt.

 

nothing to write home about.

Edited January 18, 2011 by RuMR

[Pete_H]

...probably on the order of 30-40 footers if you pitch,

 

But that's like 10 body lengths for you Rudy.

[Peter_Puget]

Cascadeclimber was using "grid bolted" as euphemism for over bolted or no risk pussy route. I just wanted to point out that some of the routes at WW1 have good size fall potential.

 

It seems that many “sport” routes rely on zero bolt failures to be safe. If people don’t maintain the crags, eventually we will have a whole bunch of booby traps masquerading as routes. Kudos to the crew that upgraded the gear.

 

On a side note: While a crag can be “grid bolted”, it is very rare for a route to be “grid bolted.”

 

[johnkelley]

Have to side with raindog on this one. Seems like the concept of clean climbing is being forgotten. What happened to boldness, adventure, etc? The idea that dumbing down climbs is some kind of a community service is complete BS. Sport climbing is neither!

[stevetimetravlr]

Whatever dude. Each to their own. Or maybe, a little bit of everything makes you a stronger better well rounded climber.

[johnkelley]

No, sport climbing sucks. It's starting to catch up with us too. Look at places like Eldo, Red Rocks, and now several Natiolal Parks. Now it's either no bolts or maybe with a permit. Surly even a stupid ass sport climber can see that. It's only the beginning.

[Frankazoid]

Have to side with raindog on this one. Seems like the concept of clean climbing is being forgotten. What happened to boldness, adventure, etc? The idea that dumbing down climbs is some kind of a community service is complete BS. Sport climbing is neither!

 

This is what I would call "dumbing down a climb". People should be relativley happy until we have more of this going on...