jtflyfisher Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Hey, I've been just lurking around and finally came up with a question. When my surfing trip to Brazil crapped out I traded it in on a Mountain Madness trip to Early Winter Spires. (always wanted to climb there but dont know anyone who know the place) I've been hearing good and bad about MM. Question is: What is your opinion of MM? (I cant wait to hear the spray on me getting a guide!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I have met alot of the Mountain Madness staff, and most of them are pretty cool. I think that the quality of your guide could make or break the trip. Or not... There is a difference between having a guide, and being dragged up something by one. There is no shame in learning from one. Just make him give you your moneys worth, ie. question everything and learn something. Going with a small group obviously has its advantages. The important thing is to enjoy the climb and the scenery. Have fun-matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieE Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 It seems they've been rebuilding since the shakeup in '96 and, just recently, the change of leadership. Nevertheless I know some guys who work for them, and they are pretty good. No shame in going guided as long as you use it to learn, rather than have your hand held. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 personally i would only climb with an amga certified guide, not an amga accredited guide service. the difference would be that mm has an amga certified guide on staff, but the chances of you actually climbing with the amga guide is almost nil. if you are going to go to washington pass i would use the local service. much more personal with a smaller client to guide ratio. there is less of a cattle herd bid-ness. here's a link to their website. http://www.ncmountainguides.com/ncmtnguides/ i have met most of them and they are way solid. suport the local bros. if america is ever to establish guiding as a legitimate bussiness then we need to support actual professional guides, people who make their living off sharing their passion of the mtns. not some dude off for the summer. not that they are bad people. but we do need to legitimize the good guys. i personally know of a couple mm guys and would not even crag with them. but that is my issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I'd agree with erik. Support the little guy! I also have a close friend who runs a private guiding buisness out of Seattle. I have worked with him on occasion and climbed with him in Nepal. Matt's a great guy who leaves his ego in the city when he heads into the mountains. The buisness is called Four Winds. He is way less expensive than AAI, Madness, etc... He only takes small private groups. And he will teach you as much as you are willing to learn. He guides South Early Winter quite often, so as long as it doesn't rain you can count on having a good trip! Send me a private message if you'd like his phone #. Thanks-matt [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 08-16-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 jtflyfisher, Mountain Madness has been in business continually since 1983. In 1996 Scott Fisher died on Everest and the company was briefly run by his widow (through her sister). In 1997 Christine Boskoff purchased the company from Scott's estate. Christine has been the owner and operator of the company continually since. Any changes have been the normal ebb and flow of changes in staff. Mark Gunlogson has been running the office for quite some time now and has been connected with the company for years. Mountain Madness runs various expeditions and safaris all over the globe on all seven continents. Most trips are "scheduled" trips, however "custom" trips to anywhere are always being scheduled. Mountain Madness has an excellent record of success and saftey. They employ a wide variety of competant guides, both male and female. The fact of the matter is that many of the guide services are good companies. I am sure that someone somewhere has had a bad experience with Mountain Madness....just as some have had bad experiences with AAI and RMI. I would ask those that have given you the "bad" if it is based on a trip that they were actually guided on? Since you are being guided, that is the info you need. Ignore the rest. I am curious to know what bad you heard? Remember there are always skeptics. I went on a 20 day course in Peru a couple of years ago and had a blast. The food was great, the guide was great, the whole trip rocked (Huascaran & Pisco). I am going to Tanzania this weekend with Mountain Madness. No problems. Good luck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 all i am saying is support the amga, to legetimze professional guides, use guides who live and support local areas such as mazama or the such. read martin volken's article about guiding in the u.s. a couple years ago in r&i. you might have a better idea to what i am talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtflyfisher Posted August 16, 2001 Author Share Posted August 16, 2001 Its good to hear all the positive feedback! I've been a weekend warrior for some years now and need to get to the next level. I wish I had shopped the guide services a little more, but the $$ are in with MM and they are the choice this time out. As for the negative stuff I've heard, I used to work for a large local outdoor retailer and many of the employees (my friends) developed harsh opinions of almost all of the services. If I listened long enough ALL the services were either good-bad, cool-nasty, rock solid-scarey dangerous. Couple last things. I have NEVER surfed before, it was a buddys idea. Matt Fioretti is cool, I met him while working at the aforementioned retailer. Thanks everybody! ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Erik, Don't forget to mention that an AMGA certified guide from several years ago may have significantly different credentials than one who went through the course recently. Considering how much the standards have changed... [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 08-16-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 thats true, but meet martin and you want bro to short rope you. he inspires confidence. plus he is swiss. though he has his own service. out of north bend. www.proguiding.com and the boys at north cascades are dialed as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 JT, nice! You been to his little shop up on Queen Anne? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtflyfisher Posted August 16, 2001 Author Share Posted August 16, 2001 Sounds like I'm gonna have a blast! The trip goes off in Sept. I'll get back to the board with some feedback on my return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Have a great time on your trip. If you decided to go with Madness you'll have a good time. I've done several trips with them over the past three years. They were well organized, and when people wanted to learn the guides focused on teaching skills and judgement to help people become more independent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtflyfisher Posted August 16, 2001 Author Share Posted August 16, 2001 OK, new question. I was indocrinated to think that hiring a guide was a bad/desperate act. Starting to sound like its no bad thing at all, but can be a quality addition to a climbing career. Do you folks agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 In my inflammatory opinion, hiring a guide as a teacher is fine, but hiring a guide to get a summit tick because you don't want to go to the trouble of making friends with other climbers or pushing yourself up the skills pyramid slowly is equivalent to using oxygen or pulling on bolts . Look at all the dumb asses on Everest like Chossy Hill Pitman. Sounds like she could have just sat in a haulbag and been winched up the peak... No offense to guides but how can you respect some of those clients? Kind of like hookers and johns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I think you can learn from a guide for sure. I have never hired one so I don't know which ones are good. I hear by reputation that these guys are good http://www.proguiding.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Hiering a guide is not necessarily a bad thing but can be an expensive way to get to the next level (depending on what that means). My first question is if you're all ready an acomplished trad sport climber why waste money on a guide for climbing at Washington Pass it's more or less a multi pitch sport area. The approaches are like an hour or two. If you don't have much experience on rock at all, I'd seriously consider a course from one of the local climbing clubs. ------------------ pinninngrinnin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtflyfisher Posted August 17, 2001 Author Share Posted August 17, 2001 I agree with Dru and Norm. My biggest trad leads were Princely Ambitions and Godzilla. I want to push into bigger multi-pitch and I currently dont have anybody to follow. I almost quit the sport until a couple buddies wanted to start so I'm on the sharp end with them. I'm already down with this trip and am way stoked about it! And I could really use some rope handling and route finding instruction. As for making climbing friends maybe I can do that around here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 If you mountaineer overseas guide services are great. They handle all of the logistics and messy permits. They also know where to go and what to skip. I work full time and the time off needs to be spent climbing...not planning to climb. Dru...have you been over 28,000 feet? [This message has been edited by Rodchester (edited 08-16-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To_The_Top Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I agree with the above posts about Pro Guiding Service and Martin. I have hired Martin a few times when I get to a level I feel I need more instruction. I feel that if you hire a guide to get you to the summit, you miss out on instruction that you can use to get to many more summits. I prefer hiring a guide, and they will take more than one person, even up to three. No harm in hiring a guide for instruction with a few friends that are at your level to split costs. I just learn better this way than in a class, but others may have better luck in a class. TTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I'd only reccomend a class to pick up basic skills, beyond that the best way to learn is to get out there with someone whose willing to take you uder there wing and show you what they know. You can pay for more experienced partners, pick them up in bars, or meet them though mutual friends. [This message has been edited by Norm (edited 08-16-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 A friend of mine has a couple pictures of Mark G in compromising positions. One involves a beer bottle and Mark's butt. You could use them for a discount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtflyfisher Posted August 17, 2001 Author Share Posted August 17, 2001 In a local dive bar. (to my buddy, What about that one? He looks all climby?) Saunter over, "hey there! Can I buy you a drink? You look all tough and your hands are ripped to shit, wanna guide me?" Is that how you pick up leaders in bars? LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I spent a number of years in the guiding biz and we were often asked why anyone should pay the money to go with a professional when they can learn with their friends or join the Mountaineers or whatever. Our reply? With a guide service or climbing school, you can learn how to do things correctly THE FIRST TIME under careful supervision, and the things that are taught and the insights that are shared are based on years of experience. I don't like to use the word "short-cut" but I always felt that a student in a two to four day rock climbing seminar, for instance, would learn more, and gain more quality experience, than months in the Mountaineer's Basic Course (or at least the rock climbing aspects of it), the latter often being taught by recent graduates of the course. I always resented the Mountaineers and their "instructors" because it took me several years of serious climbing and teaching apprenticeships before I had the audacity to call myself a guide or instructor. When I started, I went to climbing schools myself so after having been on both ends of that scene, I recommend the climbing school. Do your homework and check out the guide first. Not all of them are equal, even if they've been through the APMGA program. There are plenty of outstanding climbers in this world, and a number of guides here and there, but they have to be able to climb well and safely AND be able to teach effectively. Dwayner's 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtflyfisher Posted August 17, 2001 Author Share Posted August 17, 2001 Ok, straight up, this is what its about for me. When I worked at R(cough)E(cough,sneeze, look away)I, I always had someone better than me to climb with. Now that I've moved on from there I have a severe shortage of partners. And I lead for all I have. (All, my ass, its 2) This has shown me I need some more instruction if I'm gonna keep leading and training my friends. AND I'v wanted to climb Washington Pass for years. Time to combine both so I can learn better technique and the routes so I can lead them safely later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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