Down Verses Synthetic

[DanO]

I always favored goose down for sleeping bags, but would consider

trying out the newest Primaloft insulated sleeping bags.

 

I notice a lot of insulated clothing gear in REI and by manufacturers to be insulated by Goose Down, local stores seem to have MORE HEAVY goose down insulated clothing than synthetic.

 

I wonder about this, how many climbers and hikers in this area actually use down on the trails and mountains. Personally I

almost never would carry down clothing, especially in the cascades.

 

Is most of the down gear sold to people that are really not going

into the back country? Or do they know something I don't know? I

imagine in the back country after a soggy couple of days being in

trouble with goose down gear. Actually it can be much quicker than

this to my mind???

 

Dan

 

 

Edited November 7, 2010 by DanO

[RaisedByPikas]

I tend to only climb in good weather so I carry down insulation and a down bag. If for some reason I was going to take a trip with several days of rain predicted then I would probably switch to a synthetic jacket but I will always use a down bag. Unless its really really cold you wont need to wear the down while moving so its not out of the pack enough to get wet.

[Alasdair]

Down is totally fine in the cascades. You do need to be a little more careful, but thats life. I am out in crappy weather more than most people and I would not think of buying a synthetic bag. I have done numerous trips where it rained pretty much constantly for 5 days and although it sucked pretty badly, my sleeping bag did not get wet because I was careful. Down lasts longer and is warmer for the weight.

[Water]

when you say backcountry do you mean off trail or just not in a campground?

 

i have a synthetic puffy but use only down really due to warmth/weight. being careful can be as simple as having the stuff-sack for it be sil-nylon instead of just nylon. and/or having a decent DWR or tight-weave material/waterproof shell for the bag.

 

have taken a down bag canoeing for weeks in boundary water canoe area, never got it wet. fiance and i both used down bags for 7 months on Appalachian trail, bags never got wet. colorado t-storms never wet. almost started getting wet after 6-7 days on the north country trail in robson/jasper park in BC/alberta but only because it rained many times every day and our tarp started to send mist down onto us due to heavy rain and constant condensation/never a chance to dry.

[DPS]

Down is totally fine in the cascades. You do need to be a little more careful, but thats life.

 

I have a lot of respect for Alasdair and his climbing accomplishments and experience. That said I have to disagree with him about down outerwear in the Cascades. IF the weather is good and the humidity is low then down can work fine. But if the weather is bad or it is humid a down belay jacket will soak up water like a sponge. I got rid of my down jacket after descending in one two many winter storms with my jacket deflated, doing me no good. Now if your idea of the backcounty is cold mornings at Smith Rock or Vantage, then down is probably ok. Even in good weather on Rainier in August down can be ok. But when the weather turns poor and you need your insulation the most it will fail. In dry ranges, like the Alaska Range, down outerwear makes a lot of sense. As for bags, I use down almost exclusively. They are easier to keep dry because I sleep under a tarp or in a tent. The only case I wouldn't use a down bags is on large, multi bivi climbs in the winter.

[NoahT]

For me, 1-3 day trips in the cascades year round = down bag. Even if it gets wet, I'm not out long enough for it to really matter.

 

All my clothing, including belay jacket = synthetic. The same logic might hold true, except it spends a lot more time getting wet than packed up nicely in my backpack.

 

N

[johndavidjr]

Rarely out more than one night in winter. Generally I wake up & bag is fine. Stuff it, get home, bag is a hopelessly wet mess, condensation from the night having become thoroughly distributed through stuffing process.

[DanO]

I wonder how many people buy the down gear and even know

how careful you should be with down clothing in rainy weather,

or wet falling snow, etc.

 

The goose down clothing is nice and light and stuffs easy in your back pack,, it sucks you in.....

 

I have tried the polyguard 3d insulated sleeping bags and found

them too bulky and cold and heavy as compared to down. With a Down bag the key in rainy weather is to have a good quality shelter, a slightly larger than needed shelter is nice, to keep all clothing and gear and sleeping bag etc off of shelter walls, also I think doubled walled tent better than single walled.

 

I myself would not use down insulated clothing unless it is assured to be a dry cold condition. I do use a down insulated

sleeping bag and carry good quality shelter.

 

Not hiking or climbing but..

My Dad a construction worker in heavy construction projects said

Goose down will get you killed, good enough for me. Nothing like

being under a ice cold drip working all day to get that education.

 

Dan

Edited November 7, 2010 by DanO

[DanO]

Rarely out more than one night in winter. Generally I wake up & bag is fine. Stuff it, get home, bag is a hopelessly wet mess, condensation from the night having become thoroughly distributed through stuffing process.

 

I am considering trying a Primaloft sleeping bag in the future, when

I can afford it. I really like Primaloft in clothing gear.

[Dane]

Most who have some experience will have down and synthetic gear in their kit. Primaloft 1 being my current favorite as a synthetic.

 

I've owned and used synthetic bags. Own one now. But I also own and use three different down bags. The oldest of them I still use and after being cleaned by Feathered Friends looks and lofts like new. That bag is 30+ years old. The newest a Feathered Friends Vireo only a couple of years old.

 

No right or wrong answer on insulation just a wrong choice for your specific adventure or current skill set.

 

Is most of the down gear sold to people that are really not going into the back country?

 

If you talk with even the best boutique manufactures of high end down gear they will tell you that the majority of their sells go to people wanting a warm, light weight, jacket, not to someone who is actually going to use a down jacket in the back country.

 

 

[DanO]

I did a little search, when the crap hits the fan.

 

 

 

 

http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewArticle.asp?id=2026

 

 

[DanO]

I did a little search, when the crap hits the fan.

 

 

 

 

http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/magazine/goat_hunt_from_hell.htm

 

Edited November 7, 2010 by DanO

[Dane]

You did notice this is a climbing forum and not a hunting forum, right?

 

Hunting in the rain is the norm. Climbing in the rain is not.

Classically funny stories you posted though.

 

"I had forgot my tent poles, burned my tent, my leg, sleeping bag and bivy sack. I blew up my heater. I am camped on a moving, shifting glacier that tried to eat my tent. I forgot my lighter and my matches don’t work. I have cracked my head open. My compass and GPS are not working. My headlamp is a no go. I am now stuck in the fog on the glacier. My tent is a self-bailing convertible and I am having moonlight visits by a love sick Yeti. Not a bad tally for one day."

 

 

Then

"It is still hard for me to admit this, but several times I actually gave up on even trying to get a fire going. The delirium of hypothermia danced at the edge of my consciousness. I pondered crawling into my sleeping bag and just trying to sleep until the shivering stopped. I felt weary. I left the shelter, I needed dry wood. I'd spent nearly two hours trying to light a fire and all I wanted was something to stop the shivering."

 

Loosing a tent on Rainier or Denali in a storm is so common as to seldom elicit much of a comment. I can't count the times I have full on shivered through a long night in below zero temps.

 

Not pleasant but seldom life changing either. The kinds of incidents you posted links to seldom have anything to do with the gear you bring...much more likely only 1/2 a brain was turned on at a crucial time when full brain was obviously required.

 

Use 1/2 your brain very often climbing and you won't be climbing long.

 

 

 

 

[bearbreeder]

synthetic clothes ... synthetic bag

 

down bag will work fine for short durations and if you dont get it wet

 

what is nice is a light down sweater/vest for times you need that extra warmth ... itll be below freezing then so rain wont be too much of an issue

 

generally youll need 60-70% more synthetic filling in weight to equal 800 fill down

 

as a side ... with primaloft 1 having a 0.92 clo/oz ... its pointless to buy anything less than 800 fill down these days .. you might as well go synthetic

[quark]

Born and raised here and have been climbing and camping in the Cascades for longer than I would like to admit (ok...a slight diversion in the Rockies along the way).

 

I've climbed in a lot of places and the Cascades is the HARDEST place to dress right. Anything seems to work in Colorado, for example. It's hard to get wet rolling around in their dry snow and 0 degrees there feels a lot warmer for some maddening reason.

 

In the Cascades, getting wet is real. Getting cold because of moisture is also real. I prefer synthetic clothing and down bags. Down bags are not hard to keep dry (enough) unless something really bad happens. I love the huge puffy cocoon surrounding me while I sleep and they last FOREVER. My main bag is 20+ years old and still going strong.

 

I might bring a down puffy while ski touring or car camping, but otherwise it's synthetic all the way.

[Le Piston]

Like Quark, I'm another of those who almost always bring synthetic insulation for my clothes and down for my sleeping bag. I do own down jackets, which I tend to use on clear cold weather trips. If it gets wet and nasty, I either hunker down and stay dry or get the heck out of the hills. For the Cascades, I prepare for wet and cold...and synthetics work much better when wet than down. Personally, I've had no problems keeping my down bag functionally dry(there is always some condensation, perspiration, etc.)...even in some pretty gnarly weather conditions in the Cascades, Olympics, Canadian Rockies, and Alps. I much prefer the warmth-to-weight,durability and loft advantages of down sleeping bags over synthetic. Dane makes a good point though...you can make most anything work if you use good sense and have the will.

[Coldfinger]

Well there is one HUGE advantage for synthetic jackets in really cold but dry climates (well as dry as winter gets anyway) like here in Wyoming.....

 

I put the thing on OVER all my layers and it allows all the body related and other moisture to escape. Gets so cold here that Goretex (and eVent) ceases to function, one gets a layer of ice on/under the shell layer and backed up sweat under that. So it's no just a function of environmental moisture (rain etc.).

 

Also, as condensation and frost builds up in even the best down bags (especially if there is a long storm and no sun to dry a bag out), it's nice to have a solid synthetic belay jacket to keep somewhat comfortable in the tent or even just alive.

 

As moisture in winter is so prevalent and lethal, I can't see not bringing a synthetic jacket, especially when bringing a down bag.

[davidk]

As Coldfinger pointed out, when putting a belay jacket on over shell layers it can be easy to get the puffy wet from the inside out. I've had multiple instances when after a wet ice pitch I have pulled on my synthetic parka over my wet or iced-up shell. Most lining fabrics are not water resistant (or not to the extent) like the shell fabric, so any moisture on your shell can quickly enter the insulation. Not an issue with synthetic insulation.

 

I am also a fan of the safety/redundancy afforded by carrying a down sleeping bag and a synthetic puffy.

[DanO]

Hello,

 

I started this thread as a sort of check for me, as what I am thinking about goose down insulated clothing could be a hazard. I tried the polyguard 3d sleeping bags and found them heavy and not warm for the bulk as compare to goose down sleeping bags. I also tried a light weight goose down jacket on the presidential range new Hampshire in winter. I put it over all my other clothes and it got wet from snow from the outside and a little perspiration from the inside out. I had a good over rated goose down sleeping bag and a good tent, that night I still could not get the goose down jacket dried out. I must say the jacket did not have any kind of waterproof treatment or shell, so I was outside it's intended design in usage. (Needed more of the brain in operation..)

 

For me synthetic is the way to go for clothing, and now I am

on the hunt for a good belay coat. I notice though most(all) of the synthetic ones are not made as puffy as the down belay coats.

 

I still prefer goose down over synthetic for a sleeping bag, but as we all know it depends even more on a good shelter.

 

As a gear freak, I would like to try out the newer primaloft sleeping bags some day to see if that would work for me.

 

I wonder why they can't make those goose feathers waterproof?

You would think with the right chemical treatment that would

work.

 

[Coldfinger]

Don't even hesitate to get a good down bag! I've never found a synthetic bag that was even close to being as warm nevermind close to being as compact and light.

[summitchaserCJB]

True that coldfinger.

[bearbreeder]

do note that the disadvantage for me anyways is one of bulk rather than weight for a synthetic bag ... my synth bag takes up over 1/3 of my alpine pack

 

although the best 800 fill down bags will be ~30% lighter than the best synthetic bags on the market, 650 fill bags are often the same weight as a good synthetic bag

 

as an example my climbashield cats meow is 19F en 13537 tested, takes up 15L or so and weights 1200g

 

the marmot helium 800 fill which is 16F en 13537 tested, weights 1077g but takes up less space

 

the marmot sawtooth 600 fill is 14F en 13537 tested, weights more at 1389g ... but is 5F warmer ...

 

so the short story is that only 800 fill is worth buying ... the top synthetic bags are at the same level of 600 fill down ... and likely 1/2 the price to boot especially on sale

 

just make sure you find ones which are tested if you want to be certain of the temp rating

Edited November 10, 2010 by bearbreeder

[Dane]

My current winter alpine climbing pack is 18L total

[summitchaserCJB]

That's for daytrip? I'm a notorious overpacker but I'm working on it,

[Coldfinger]

Dane, 18L, are you sure you live where winter is really winter?

 

One could hit me over the head with any number of grams or fill ratings but I've frozen my ass EVERY time I've used a synthetic bag--they just don't live up to their ratings and they don't hold up well over time and yes they do lose insulating value as they get wet.