One of the best threads ever

[summitchaserCJB]

I'd say if I had to lean any direction it is towards under-protecting routes. Because you can always add bolts later if need be (although this is not meshing well with the common practice). I think we need a few over-bolted routes (condomorphine addiction) that let more new climbers onto otherwise intimidating routes. Obviously, as evidenced by their continued existence and even propagation, these routes serve a purpose.

Then again, I climb trad 97% of the time.

[froodish]

In general I'm glad there is variety and room for all.

 

The one thing that does chap my hide though, is putting up a ballsy route AFTER toproping it...that's weak sauce and a second ascent is on uneven footing as the FA...if you are too weak to lead ground up, then make it safe...OTW GO FOR IT!

 

Hear hear.

 

I feel somewhat similarly to 5.12 climbers putting up easy routes in popular areas and running them out.

[JosephH]

Why? Maybe they thought people needed a local line to practice for Snake Dike.

[froodish]

Why even bother to put up a 5.6 route if you're climbing at a much higher level? Certainly not for the personal challenge. If there is an easy 8 pitch slab you really need to knock off in a hurry, then sure, but otherwise why not protect it in line with the expected traffic?

[eldiente]

That whole "fall into obscurity" thing translates into me walking along a beautiful cliff looking up at an old, obscure route, put up 30 years ago by some super climber who only placed 3 bolts in 120 feet..

 

I have to ask, what crag do you climb at where this takes place? If I randomly picked-up a guidebook off my shelf and thumbed the pages, I'd bet that only 1 out of every 20 routes has an R or X behind it. (maybe even less?) Most sport climbs in the world are safe, recreational affairs. People bolting easy routes understand that they are establishing a route to be used by the masses and place the the bolts accordingly. Many of the new routes going in at Smith are put up by people that could free solo them in their flops but generously bolt it so the less skilled can enjoy it.

 

Think of all the modern classics in the 5.6-5.10 range, most of these have gear so plentiful that my Mom could lead it. So I'd say that the current trend of new route development is going toward putting in new routes that are well protected and appeal to a wider audience. With so many well protected easy routes in the world, isn't there room for something with a bit more spice to it?

 

As for Southern Belle.. I'm sure these guys weren't thinking of us when they put it up and nor should they. If there was better stances to drill from, you'd have to think they would have placed more bolts. Really gnarly and an inspiration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2010 by eldiente

[summitchaserCJB]

Ya I think this conversation may be taking on the more philosophical color eldiente, not that there is any problem with that. I think the hyperbole might be just to highlight the questions at hand.

[JosephH]

These discussions always seem to stem from some post that simultaneously covet and vilify some old runout routes.

[Off_White]

Cosgrove's postings on ST have in aggregate reduced my estimation of the man.

[markwebster]

That whole "fall into obscurity" thing translates into me walking along a beautiful cliff looking up at an old, obscure route, put up 30 years ago by some super climber who only placed 3 bolts in 120 feet..

 

I have to ask, what crag do you climb at where this takes place? I

 

 

As to the crags in question: walk along the base of glacier point apron in Yosemite, or the cliff to the right of Central Pillar of Frenzy, also Yosemite. Or the Peshastin Pinnacles, or some of the older bolted routes up the icicle. Also, many of the buttresses and topouts in Joshua Tree.

 

It is true that if you climb every day, or are gifted with brass cohones, you can get used to big runnouts. It even happens to an old has been like me...on a long vacation.

 

But for the average weekend climber, there is a lot of rock out there that is cursed with obscure routes no one does anymore for the reasons mentioned. It's a waste of perfectly good rock.

 

And yes, you can avoid these issues by climbing trad.

 

 

[boadman]

We all just need to start being crafty and rapping in and TRing these big, obscure classics. If you don't like TRing, you don't like climbing. If you want to lead it, climb at the level of commitment that the rock and the route demand, if you just want to have fun climbing it, hike up there and set up the mega-TR. Unless it's a rap bolted new school sport route that's run out and dangerous, in which case you might as well fix it.

[tanstaafl]

I am an average weekend climber and I absolutely disagree that routes I can't climb off the couch are a waste of rock.

 

I like the fact that there are easy routes, ones that I have to be on my game to climb, ones that give me something to train for, and ones that are (at least currently, and some probably forever) out of my reach. If climbing were so easy I didn't have to put any effort into it, what would be the point of bothering with it at all?

 

[eldiente]

Maybe I'm just a sally, but I find great joy in TRing routes above my pay grade. There are many routes that are fun to TR but way too scary for me to lead, I'm OK with that. Maybe TRing is the best solution for these obscure/un-safe routes(?) J-tree would seem to be an ideal place for this, walk up the back and drop the TR down, scary route is scary no more.

 

Nate

 

 

[kevbone]

That whole "fall into obscurity" thing translates into me walking along a beautiful cliff looking up at an old, obscure route, put up 30 years ago by some super climber who only placed 3 bolts in 120 feet..

 

I have to ask, what crag do you climb at where this takes place?

 

 

 

Joshua Tree.

[counterfeitfake]

It is wrong to think that all route developers owe it to you to bolt all routes you are technically capable of climbing such that you'd be willing to lead them.

 

I see some validity to criticizing someone who sparsely bolts a good moderate route at a popular crag, but this is stupidly far off the point.

 

Southern Belle is legendary. It is good to have legends in the world. It is inspirational. I think it's amazing that you could read that account and immediately turn the conversation to whining about underbolted routes. Criticizing the FAists for protecting it the way they did is off the mark- if you attempt the route now you will share the same experience they had. Decide whether you think you're up to the challenge before you touch the granite. There are V10 problems for V10 boulderers, there are 5.12 sport climbs for 5.12 sport leaders, and there are runout horrorshows for the deeply crazy or brave.

 

The world does not owe you a route.

[JosephH]

Sometimes you feel like a [suicidal] nut, sometimes you don't...

Me? I go in and out of it. Usually with me, though, it's more about how marginal a pro I feel like climbing over an any given day than how run out it is, though it can be both on 'bad' days.

[summitchaserCJB]

I think we're talking about the same thing here and it's different strokes for different folks.

[marc_leclerc]

The FFA of Southern Belle was so bad-ass. Excellent style! Mad props and respect! I would love to one day be capable of trying to free that line in such good style!

 

Now on the topic of run out routes and stuff.... I think there is a place for bold routes and safe routes, there is so much rock around does everything really need to be safe for everyone? NO!

 

If you are not mentally up to the task of leading some 5.12 R/X don't bolt it, TR it, or go to one of the other 30 million safe 5.12 routes in this world! It isn't that hard to do, you say it is selfish to make a route scary because not everyone can do it? Well is it just as selfish to bolt a scary line and take it away from the climbers who travel to seek out scary lines. In fact it is more selfish because there are less scary routes IMO than safe ones, if you fuck up a scary lead I want to try I have to look so much harder to find another one....

 

 

[summitchaserCJB]

Marc- you definitely have experience with these type of routes so more power to you. Just stay safe broseph.

[el jefe]

The FFA of Southern Belle was so bad-ass. Excellent style! Mad props and respect! I would love to one day be capable of trying to free that line in such good style!

 

Now on the topic of run out routes and stuff.... I think there is a place for bold routes and safe routes, there is so much rock around does everything really need to be safe for everyone? NO!

 

If you are not mentally up to the task of leading some 5.12 R/X don't bolt it, TR it, or go to one of the other 30 million safe 5.12 routes in this world! It isn't that hard to do, you say it is selfish to make a route scary because not everyone can do it? Well is it just as selfish to bolt a scary line and take it away from the climbers who travel to seek out scary lines. In fact it is more selfish because there are less scary routes IMO than safe ones, if you fuck up a scary lead I want to try I have to look so much harder to find another one....

 

 

no one requires you to clip the bolts on a sport climb or to use a rope, for that matter. if you want a "scary lead" all you have to do is skip some clips or leave the rope at home.

[NoahT]

 

no one requires you to clip the bolts on a sport climb or to use a rope, for that matter. if you want a "scary lead" all you have to do is skip some clips or leave the rope at home.

 

Well said.

[marc_leclerc]

 

no one requires you to clip the bolts on a sport climb or to use a rope, for that matter. if you want a "scary lead" all you have to do is skip some clips or leave the rope at home.

 

What you say is 'sorta' true..... but not really. Just the presence of bolts on a route immediately lowers both the commitment and the quality of a 'scary' route. Say for instance if you get scared you can just bitch out and clip/grab/stand on a bolt. When you start into a runout and there is truly no gear for the next 40ft and you also can't downclimb the moves it is 'full commitment' and 'engagement' with the rock. This is really what we are looking for when doing 'scary' routes. Generally I don't want to be scared, I am looking for that full commitment an engagement with the rock, and to climb calmly and cooly through difficult and committing runouts is one of the most amazing sensations imaginable in rock climbing.... maybe only to be topped by 'clucking'

[summitchaserCJB]

Marc- Totally agree. I feel the same way about climbs specifically and climbing in general.

[el jefe]

 

no one requires you to clip the bolts on a sport climb or to use a rope, for that matter. if you want a "scary lead" all you have to do is skip some clips or leave the rope at home.

 

What you say is 'sorta' true..... but not really. Just the presence of bolts on a route immediately lowers both the commitment and the quality of a 'scary' route. Say for instance if you get scared you can just bitch out and clip/grab/stand on a bolt. When you start into a runout and there is truly no gear for the next 40ft and you also can't downclimb the moves it is 'full commitment' and 'engagement' with the rock. This is really what we are looking for when doing 'scary' routes. Generally I don't want to be scared, I am looking for that full commitment an engagement with the rock, and to climb calmly and cooly through difficult and committing runouts is one of the most amazing sensations imaginable in rock climbing.... maybe only to be topped by 'clucking'

 

if you "bitch out and clip/grab/stand on a bolt", then that's on you, marc. if you were serious about wanting a "scary lead" then you won't, as you put it, "bitch out". if you do "bitch out", then i guess you weren't really after a "scary lead" after all.

 

bottom line is if you want a scary lead then skip some clips or tie the rope around your neck instead of tying it to your harness. lots of opportunity out there to be scared if that's what you want. no need to go around making rules for everyone else to follow.

[mattp]

As often occurs, there is an argument here that may be simply for argument's sake.

 

I think the post that set this discussion in motion was Mr. Webster's statement that he had once put up some run out climbs and has decided that, for him at least, it seems a "waste" of good rock to bolt climbs that nobody wants to follow.

 

My guess is that most posters here would agree.

 

Should all climbs be bolted as if they were housed in a climbing gym where the insurance company says it must be "safe?"

 

My guess is that most posters here would disagree.

 

In the best of worlds, would we have a variety of routes at a variety of climbing areas, with some being "safer" than others?

 

My guess is that most posters here would agree.

 

--

 

Good points are made about the "value" added where one guy takes it upon himself to eliminate run-outs from a crag or from crags in general, or if another climber (might not be a guy) takes it upon themself to bolt a "statement" about boldness, but I think the bottom line is that we should strive for and maintain variety. What it comes down to is really little more than PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

 

The trend is taking us away from ground-up and heads-up route development, for sure, and while most routes of, say, the 1970's were scarier than are those of today, I think we're doing OK as long as there remain a healthy number of the "old school" test pieces out there (even if they are developed in more recent times).

 

We can argue 50/50. 60/40. 80/20 or 90/10. I am OK with that.

[leearden]

WORD! ( I totally agree with you) Marc and summitcjb.

It would be great to watch... if everyone valued the bold and beautiful, though I must respect that some like to have bolts and a lesser commitment option for all climbs.

Boldness will always be worth something,... in our own heads.

Also, let's respect the feeling of climbing a bolted route, WITHOUT THE BOLTS THAT EVERYONE ELSE USES. For a climber to feel that complete commitment to his/her gear and to the universe that Mr. Leclerc alludes, all the while ignoring the impulse to "bitch out" and clip that bolt right next to your hand. Isn't that a good feeling too?

 

Then you can rename the trad version of the same line----"Equipped by a pussy"

 

to append: Perhaps you've read Mr. Honnold's account of his free solo of the Regular Route, with the tat from a perfectly good bolt blowing across his hand as he contemplated a long, long, long trip into eternity...??????

 

Look it up... what did Alex do??????????????

 

----------THAT WAS BALLS

Edited October 26, 2010 by leearden