War

[Dwayner]

The Poli. Sci. guy in me is doing flip-flops as I flashback to an earlier age....

"WarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothingWarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothingWar is something that I despiseFor it means destruction of innocent livesFor it means tears in thousands of mothers' eyesWhen their sons go out to fight to give their lives

WarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothingSay it againWarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothing

WarIt's nothing but a heartbreakerWarFriend only to the undertakerWar is the enemy of all mankindThe thought of war blows my mindHanded down from generation to generationInduction destructionWho wants to die

WarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothingSay it againWarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothing

War has shattered many young men's dreamsMade them disabled bitter and meanLife is too precious to be fighting warseach dayWar can't give life it can only take it away

WarIt's nothing but a heartbreakerWarFriend only to the undertakerPeace love and understandingThere must be some place for these things todayThey say we must fight to keep our freedomBut Lord there's gotta be a better wayThat's better thanWar

WarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothingSay it againWarWhat is it good forAbsolutely nothing"

Dwayner say: this all be true, but sometimes you gotta defend yourself against those who strive to destroy you. shalom, Dwayner

[Zenolith]

Yes, you're right Dwayner. Sometimes you need to defend yourself. That's what the terrorists thought they were doing and that's what we think we're doing. The more determined will prevail.

Here's my thing; Bush, after a life of aimlesness, has decided to do what Jesus, Buddah, Mohamed and the Wizard of Oz could never do. He has decided that it is his calling to rid the world of evil. I do not find this thought comforting.

[Fairweather]

Zenolith,

I believe what Bush said was something to the effect, "ridding the world of these evil do'ers". When you write that he is claiming an attempt to "rid the world of evil" you are grossly misrepresenting and misquoting what our pres. has said to create agnst and gain others sympathy for your bias.

As for HIS "aimless" life.....don't YOU live in Eugene?

[none_dup1]

To Alpine Tom: Too bad we don't have 25 divisions. Too bad we don't have 16! Try 2/3 to 1/3 strength of about 8, and you're gettin' close.

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: none ]

[panther]

Matt- your opinions are pretty inline with mine regarding the current Israeli political stance. That guy is leaning out there a little far and may take a header if he's not careful. The Israeli's will only survive if they allow the US to dictate their actions. Our toughest most belligerent puppet. I am for a Zionist nation. I support Israeli aims.

SexChocoPuff- I really don't get paid to make policy decisions. I skipped PoliSci 101 and went straight to post grad work in "KILL EVERYONE OPPOSED TO MY NATION". I think that Colin Powell and Dick Cheney have a pretty clear idea about what we need to do here. I think little George is smart enough to listen to those who know and have been there.

Panther personally thinks that scorched earth is only an effective policy when you want to PREVENT the enemy from garnishing anything useful from your own soil not scorching and destroying everything we want to obtain. If there is black gold in them thar' hills and the good ol RED WHITE AND BLUE punches those little bitch asses off their own land then guess what?

WE OWN IT. Manifest Destiny in action. The new breed for a new century.

Panther

[vegetablebelay]

[Bronco]

Zenolith:

How is a suicidal attack on 5,000 - 6,000 civilians sitting at thier desks drinking coffee supposed to be construed as the terrorists just protecting themselves. Osama Bin Hiding says for all Muslims to kill Americans wherever they are, in uniform or civilian.

The terrorists brought this on and I believe we will end it. Unless you have totally lost your mind, (and lots of folks seem to around here), nobody can justify the attack on the WTC and Pentagon. I keep hearing "we need to understand why these poor people feel so angry at us" BS. Look at how the Taliban treat thier "own" people and it's easy to see these guys are just bloodthirsty murderers bent on destruction.

[W]

Bronco,

I see your point; but while I won't speak for everyone, I think this is the central issue behind our demand to "do something about it":

in trying to "understand why the terrorists are mad at us"- no one is trying to justify the attacks on 9/11- at least, I'm not. There can never ever be anything to justify that. The terrorists may be bloodthirsty murderers, but that is beside the point- we're merely dismissing them as some abstract evil entities that have been sent here from hell to ruin our lives; I'd like to go further into it than that;I want to know and understand the psychological processes that make people do horrible things like this. This has nothing whatsoever to do with feeling "compassion" for the terrorists; rather, perhaps through an understanding of what makes people do evil things, we can gain insight into a more effective and lasting response to these "evil" actions that will not be merely the same type of psychological reaction, albeit for a "noble" cause, that will not only eliminate their further threats, but also bring about a new relationship and order in the world that is not one of endless conflict and antagonism, but one of cooperation and mutual existence.

While I think we are doing what needs to be done right now, it is also very important to ensure that our actions are not merely RE-actions to the terrorists. Using military action might be the right thing to do- in this case I think it is- all I'm saying is that let's not so righteously assume that force is always the best course of action. The above post mentions that the terrorists felt they were defending themselves...well obviously you and I know that killing people at their desks is far from that. But right or wrong- that is apparently what the terrorists FELT THEY WERE DOING. It's messed up, yes! But if you go into the matter further to see how people's actions have been warped by the illusions under which they live and have been conditioned, perhaps we can avoid falling into the same psychological traps, and see where we might already be caught. No matter how righteous our cause, the mark of true righteousness and humility begins with a constant awareness and inquiry into our actions and motives. Only then will a true "justice", or whatever we want to call it, be served.

[Cody]

W-

We have plenty of freaks right here in the United States to pyscho-analyze. Give me a break. They started a war that we will finish. Period. Is that "deep enough" for you or what?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by vegetablebelay:

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Ditto! Fuck their mental state of mind and how they think. They fucked with us now they must pay! The country is looking to be in good shape still. Heard nearly 80% was taken. I look forward to seeing it all taken and then hunt down and see if they can find this Osama.

KILL! KILL! KILL!

[mtnrgr]

I'm probally one of the people this issue affects the most. All my comrades and I are ready to play the game. I know people in theater now, and I know there just waiting for the go ahead to kick ass.

This is not going to be a TV war like the Gulf; it is going to be a secret squrril war. It is all going to be spec ops, and covert. It will be a long war without a clear victory. But it is a battle we must fight, to protect are selves. All of SOCCOM is willing to keep going until all these bastards pay.

Here is a poem from Rudyard Kipling, the guy who wrote the Jungle Book. He served in the British Army in India. This poem is just as true about the US Army now, as about turn of the century Brits. A year ago people didn't want anything to do with me, because I was in the Army. Now everyone is thanking me and praying for me. The mob is fickle.

Rudyard Kipling

TOMMY

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside"; But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide, The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleepIs cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bitIs five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;An' if sometimes our conduct isn't all your fancy paints,Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind", But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our faceThe Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace. For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Rangers Lead The WayDe Oppresso Liber

[Cpt.Caveman]

Kick em in the Gonads and be safe and smart about it!

[daisy]

I that they will get what they deserve. You military guys kick butt.

[sexual_chocolate]

mtmrgr: Rudyard Kipling wasn't a fool; your quote from his works as suggestive of support for your aggressive reactivism would have him turning in his grave.

[mtnrgr]

Would you have said that a year ago daisy? Or would you have shut me down at a bar if I met you; with the classic "Oh, your in the Army? What's it like to kill people?"

[Cody]

SC-

Rudyard Kipling may not have been a fool--but you are. Shut up. Who are you to say squat about what would make him "turn in his grave"?

[daisy]

I never said that I would go out with you. I was admiring the fact that you volunteered and are willing to follow through with your commitments. Unlike other people out there.

[mtnrgr]

I'm qouting Kipling to demonstrate how soldiers, sailiors, airman, and even cops get pissed on until they have to put their life on the line, and not you snivelling "let's all get along" hippies.

A year ago no gave a rat's ass about all the people who: are freezing their asses off in some far off country, missing their families on a 6 month deployment, getting shot at, and even dying for YOUR protection. I, and hundreds of other men and women, work my ass off for YOU.

No one wants a strong military until someone attacks your homeland. And then its, "Where was the Army? Where was the CIA? Why can't you protect my children?" Everyone bitches about cops until someone breaks in your house, or a child is killed in a DUI.

I don't want to be treated as a hero, I just want respect.

[panther]

MTNRGR-The chaff will fall to the wayside brother and the warriors will step up to the front. Don't worry.

Let me also say that if I hear about one war protest like they had in Vietnam my Reagan Youth ass is going to kick some serious hippy protester skulls in-SERIOUSLY. I'd even join the Nasty Guard if it meant I could do it legally. So far my feeling is that most people are feeling a little pissed off that some rag wearing deadbeat from some pissant little shithole has caused us problems. Good, we should be pissed off.

Oh and all you little WTO protesting fags need pummelled too.

OH! AND HALLING: Drop and beat your face till I get tired....

[W]

RE:A year ago no gave a rat's ass about all the people who: are freezing their asses off in some far off country, missing their families on a 6 month deployment, getting shot at, and even dying for YOUR protection.

Personally, I've never had a negative opinion of the military. If I have any issue it is with governments not being able to get along with each other, therefore the safety of the public, and more tangibly the military, gets put into jeopardy. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do- right now we're doing it. But independent of this current conflict, don't you think that there may be something for both you and the entire public to gain from the citizens of this country giving critical thought to improving our relations with the world? What's so fucked up about it? Obviously you don't enjoy war, no one does, so is it possible to be able to defend ourselves while also seeking to extinguish the antagonism between ourselves and potential enemies? That seems like it would be in the best interest for all.

RE:I, and hundreds of other men and women, work my ass off for YOU.

I don't want to be treated as a hero, I just want respect.[/QB]

You have respect, and you do work your ass off and you do put your life on the line. But why do you need and demand respect for doing a job you volunteered to do? If I might ask, with all due respect,- did you volunteer for the service because you cared about me and your fellow citizens, wanted to work for us and protect us (which, indeed, are all part of the job), or because you wanted to be respected?

[panther]

I am not sure now is the time to be calling into question the motivations of someone who has volunteered three times already.

Once for the ArmyOnce for AirborneOnce for the Rangers

Nuff said?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by panther:

I am not sure now is the time to be calling into question the motivations of someone who has volunteered three times already.

Once for the ArmyOnce for AirborneOnce for the Rangers

Nuff said?

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Ditto! Halling get on the LOMLog!

[W]

P-You're probably quite right. Nothing personal was/is implied.

Most of what I've been talking about in here was meant to be removed from the particular current crisis and treated as an abstract discussion about the problems facing humanity.Nonetheless, emotions are so high with everyone right now, it was an unproductive effort on my part anyway.Perhaps we should resume climbing and leave the political battles for msn and yahoo. In that arena we all still see some things the same at least...

[panther]

W, I know you're meanings are well intentioned. I was not trying to butt heads with you or anything.

Sometimes climbing has been likened as a metaphor for war and I for one am ready to declare war on some freshies and some good plastic ice!

[panther]

W are you in the Quah?