NW Forest Pass - boycott payment, right?

[allthumbs]

I reiterate; easier to pay Uncle his bloodmoney and get on with life. Life's too short to fight the goddamned system all the time. If you want to fight something, how about Uncle wanting to drill for oil all over the fucking place. And remember that when push comes to shove, I challenge you to convince me there's a better country to live in even with all our problems. Now I figure all you young guys, the ones all pumped up with piss and vinegar, will call bullshit to this idea, but in a few years when your testosterone level equalizes, you'll mellow some. Guaranteed. Pay the fucker.

[arlen]

Look, I don't have an argument with anyone who doesn't want to pay the fee. But I haven't seen any reason yet for me, personally, not to pay it. I've worked in the public sector all my working life, and I feel like I understand how money flows to and from general funds: the effects of tax revolts show up pretty clearly in the budgets of people trying to do good things.

I don't agree with all of the segments of USFS, but it'd cost me a bit more than $30 to make the improvements I've personally trod/driven/skied across, so I'll cut them some slack and pay their fee.

Their preservation arms don't have much support from the higher levels these days, so I'd need a good reason to give them shit. I've read the arguments, and I respect the reasoning. But the fee program issue just don't rise to the level of an ethical revolt for me.

arlen

[forrest_m]

allthumbs - well, yeah, but there's more at stake than a $15 or $30 sticker - the fee program is a misguided attempt to distract us from larger issues on which their policy is fucked up, i.e. timber and mining. so fighting this is actually a strategic position in that larger fight. I have been accused of being selfish or tightfisted, but really, if it were just a few bucks, I wouldn't care. (Hell, if the money actually went to conservation I'd have a lot less of a problem paying it) But the user fee program is the fightable tip of a much larger, more sinister iceberg.

no vinegar, just pissed

[allthumbs]

Okay, than what can we do to really get their attention, passively and in earnest, to make a difference? If they could prove to those of us interested that the user fee truly goes to the maintainence and caretaking of our outdoor resources, would you guys pay the fee? Or do some of you want to just "buck the system" no matter what?

[Dru]

Maybe you should have a "mass trespass" with hundreds of people all declaring themselves to be fee - free at once instead of piecemeal resistance? it worked in Britain for public access to the countryside.

as to allthumbs who said basically - show me a better government system - 90% of BC is crown land and it does not cost you a thing to use it. even in parks - no services=no fees. we are not perfect but on this issue i would have to say we are better!

as a canadian i dunno about refusing to pay the user fee though. you guys pay for public lands in your taxes - us furriners dont. what should I do if im down at l'worth hiking in to snow creek and i get busted for no pass? I know -I will tell them my name is Matt Lambert. that should work

[This message has been edited by Dru (edited 08-10-2001).]

[arlen]

forrest--

no argument that there are shited-up things going on in USFS. But I don't think that not participating in the fee program is the best way to go about making change. At some point, lobbyists for timber/mining companies are going to point to a paucity of permit buyers and argue that nobody wants to use the woods for recreation.

How to push for change? Protest the unpaid ticket with a well-reasoned letter full of CCs. Or get active on the conservation side of the issue. I'm afraid that just refusing the pay puts us on the hyper-libertarian side, which doesn't get much serious notice from people who are trying to work out good public policy.

arlen

[forrest_m]

allthumbs - well, there's the problem... you see i think my biggest problem with the program is the idea that you can NEVER use public lands without paying. i don't mind there being fees for certain special areas - national parks - or for areas where overcrowding is a big issue, or where some services are being provided - sno parks, NF campgrounds. But I strongly object to the idea that all areas are fee areas.

But your question got me thinking, what if the forest service license an independant group to sell the passes. With some sort of transparent decision making process, this group would then directly spend the money on maintenance? Power to local authorities, kind of a Republican solution...

Actually, I would prefer that they just allocate more public money to trail maintenance. It's a public resource. They currently lose huge amounts of money on the timber sales. If they tightened up their finances, it would remove a public subsidy of private profits and the net FS budget would remain the same.

As to the other comments - didn't you see the letter above? It is one of dozens I have sent. You suggest being "involved in the conservation effort," well, this is what involvement looks like. Unfortunately, the typical lobbying groups for this sort of thing (sierra club, et. al.) and I are not in agreement on this issue. I realize that my letters alone are not going to turn things around, but it is what I personally can do, so I do it.

There is still a reason not to participate: the USFS uses participation as evidence of public support - but they fine you if you aren't in "support" of the program.

[This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Pencil_Pusher]

I'm still interested to see what happens when you don't pay the ticket. Since the feds are in every state, a warrant for your arrest from the feds makes me wonder if that gets sent on the WA state level for local cops to pull up from dispatch on your next traffic stop.

Okay, so my question is, do such fed offenses (non-felony... while not a felony, refusing to show up in court probably gets bumped up from a petty offense to a misdemeanor for contempt of court) get listed on the WA database??? If not, you're home free. Even an arrest warrant (non-felony) in another state usually means nothing. WA cops only enforce WA laws. Now if your butt enters the US Customs House for SSN work or whatever or the Federal Building, hey buddy, you're on Fed property now.

 

This is all rather interesting, but I do agree that thirty bucks is a cheap price to pay to keep the heat off your back.

 

 

[allthumbs]

Why tempt fate? You wanna take risks...cool...go climb Everest.

[David_Parker]

Wow, it looks like maybe Lambone is getting swayed. Like most political conversations, my goal isn't to sway people. It's to just get them to have more information to make an educated choice. Sometimes I even play the devils advocate just to make a point I personally don't agree with! I am by no means as educated as some others here, but I feel I know enough to feel strongly about what I will do. I guess all anyone can do is lead by example. Like I said, my major objection is to paying to visit Forest Service land. National Park Land is different and for the most part is not a political chess board like Forest Service land. The Park service is fairly consistant in it's fees/use/service and the rates are reasonable for what service they provide. I gladdly paid $5.00 to camp at Perfect Pass and know there weren't (can't be) more than 8 people there. That was a permit and it probably costs the government more than $5.00 to push all that paper work so I don't see it as a user fee.

So, did you know there is more acreage of BLM land than any other type of land holding in the US. Currently it is mostly unrestricted but it too is threatened to fall under the user fee system, especially if they win on Forest Service Land.

The "just pay the $30 to get them off my back and have piece of mind" attitude means you are not a "wussie". YOU ARE A PUSSIE! You are thinking of only yourself and I'll bet $100 you don't have kids. If you do, then I feel sorry for you because these decisions will not affect us as much as future generations. OPEN YOUR MIND!!!!

I think this thread is setting a fine example of what CC can be. An great forum for a very political topic. I have a friend who works on Capital Hill as an economic/environmental advisor to congress. He asked me what I thought about this subject. I told him my opinion and then gave him the link to previous posts on this web site about this topic to get the feedback from all of us. So don't think what we write and say here doesn't count. It does and you never know who's watching or listening. Keep it going, but keep it good!

[vegetablebelay]

I'm temptin, I'm temptin. Allthumbs - go back to Russia.

Vegetablebelay is gonna take it to da limit.

[David_Parker]

Sorry about the double click! Jon, you can take the duplicate off if you want! And this one too! I'm going climbing.

[Pencil_Pusher]

I love the peace-pipe hippie screaming at the buzz cut dude, "Open your mind!" Well guess what, that sword cuts both ways. Maybe ol' buzz took a look at your way and don't like it.

"Open your mind" to my way of thinking.

Now dwayner's gonna think I'm attacking his kinfolk. I'm still trying to have erik teach me that jamaican lingo so I can better communicate on here jah.

[Fairweather]

I am honestly undecided about the fee demo program. Maintaining access roads and trails does take $$$, and I did buy my $30 pass this year. What I DO have a problem with and refuse to pay are CLIMBING fees such as the "volcano pass" that gets you access to Adams, Baker, Shasta, StHelens. And what do these fees support???..."Climbing Programs". Maybe I can see this on Rainier where they use some of the money to haul the shit buckets down from Muir and Shurman, but where do they get off charging a fee for these other mountains? And all of the $$$ goes to pay for a few geeks in uniforms to make sure you...PAID YOUR FEE! Kind of an extortion racket if you ask me.

Also; if I pay my USFS demo fee, then where do they get off trying to close the Middle Fork Snoqualmie Road just because a few enviro-geeks like hiking abandoned road bed? I paid my fee to KEEP IT OPEN! Right?

[Sargent_Rock]

I agree with those who say we should not pay this parking fee. If we fall into line, and pay this tax, then next year the government will find a way to charge us for every mile of trail we hike.

If we the people are having a hard time paying for the "up keep" of our wild lands, then perhaps we should divert some of the money from health care research, or weapon development to pay for trail building.

[Guest]

Well, does anybody know where the actual (fuckin') rules are?

[Cpt.Caveman]

http://wildwilderness.org/

No but maybe this site might have a link or something.. I know this for sure:

If you park 1/4 of a mile away from the designated area you are safe.

[David_Parker]

Allthumbs, Alpine Tom, Daylward, anyone else who pays...you guys are wimps and part of the problem. What are you afraid of? You guys are totally paranoid because you don't REALLY know what will happen if you get a ticket and don't pay. How about someone who got a ticket a long time ago and didn't pay posting how far through the system they've been wrung. What is the worst case scenario? Until they make this a felony, you got no worries!

Does anyone know if the Access Fund has taken a stance or done any lobbying?

I was camping on Second Beach 2 weekends ago and a really nice Ranger stopped by. We had a very pleasant conversation about a number of things, including the fact he was packing a weapon. He politely asked me for my permit and I told him I didn't even know I was in a Park. He asked why I didn't register at the trailhead and I told him because I didn't start at the trailhead, but had paddled my kayak from La Push. He gave me a permit and had me fill it out right there and then asked me for $5.00. Since I didn't have my wallet he then gave me an envelope to send it in. The name and address I filled out on the permit was totally made up. I also wrote "paid under protest" even though I didn't pay. I suppose eventually some paper pusher will send out a notice to the bogus address and it will come back.

But I will admit, I do not have strong opposition to paying for a permit to be in one of our National Parks. I DO have strong opposition to paying to be in the National Forest. BIG DIFFERENCE! I won't pay to park.

BTW: Alpine Tom, In regards to WTO, while many people registered to protest and intended to do it "civilly", unfortunately it will always be remembered for the VIOLENT DIS-obedience. Therefore the results of the best efforts of the civil will never be really known. Also, why don't you tell Ghandi that "civil disobedience doesn't change anything."

[mattp]

Last year, I went hiking for two nights in the Alpine Lakes. We had two vehicals, four adults, three kids. The total fee was $70.00! And for this we got a poorly maintained trail and a very crowded camping area. I do not support the restrictions of numbers, but would prefer to see camping restricted to designated spots if there is an area that is in danger of being trampled to death, but that is another thread. I agree that these fees are outrageous and while I am tempted to buy a pass, I am somewhat swayed by this discussion and I may just park someone else's car, without a pass, at a location where I am very likely to get ticketted tomorrow.

[Lambone]

Hey David Parker,

Actually I did know that the BLM holds more acerage than any other ageny in the country. It is also some of the most abused, misused, and overgrazed land in the country. So, if user fees are charged and put towards maintinance and rehabilitation of that land than I am all for it.

Am I being swayed? No, infact I don't know who to believe. Why should I believe Mr. Forrests letter any more than the US Forrest service. Thats the problem with this counrty, everyone thinks they are right, and the other is lying.

I have spent plenty of time cheating the government, skipping out on fees, sneeking in to concerts, etc... I have learned two things, firsts its not worth it cause when you get caught you'll end up owing twice as much. And two, its not fair to the people who do pay the fee. It only drives prices up for everyone else. Its not beating the system, its milking the system.

And don't start telling me that cause I don't have kids I don't care about the future. I never attacked you. Open your mind.

[climbing4fun2000]

I do not like paying fees for things like hiking and climbing but...everything cost money; building and maintaining trails cost money. I would be more likely to join a protest on how the USFS spends there money. We all have to live within our budget, why shouldn't they. Again, while I do not like paying the fee it makes me more upset that the money received from those fees is being absorbed into the general system and may or may not help with trail building or maintainance. I think we should bitch lound and long until they seperate the fee money and designate it for trail building and maintainance, and tell "Johnny Deep Pockets" and "Smiley Glad Hands" to stay the Hell away from it.

[Uncle_Tricky]

The fact is that only a tiny fraction of the USFS budget goes to maintaining trails or preserving what's left of our public wildlands. The vast bulk of the USFS budget goes to subsidizing logging, mining and grazing on public lands. They build roads, put up fences specifically to provide private corporations with easy access to public resources, and then give these resources away for a fraction of their worth. The forest service is even nice enough to foot the bill for the extractive industries by assuming the cost of "restoring" the areas they've just finished trashing.

Another major outlay for the Forest Service involves accomadating the motorized tourism lobby by "improving" rustic facilities, i.e. building fancy new paved KOA-like campgrounds with RV hookups, pop machines, showers, halogen lights, flush toilets, pay stations, and of course buying vehicles and uniforms and hiring people to patrol, maintain and enforce the rules and fees of the new facilities.

Don't get me wrong, I think that there's a place for multi-use of public lands, and National Forests in particular, including selective sustainable logging and grazing. But the current system of using public money to directly subsidize the destruction of public lands for the enrichment of a few private corporations, while making the public pay to even walk upon their public lands is absurd and wrong.

The point is there's really no shortage of funds to manage public lands. Its just that they are busy spending most of their budget subsidizing the destruction of public lands and "improving" the public wilderness in ways that I'm not sure are really improving anything at all. Priorities need to change. Public lands need to be managed for the public trust. After those things, if maintaining public lands required higher taxes in order to insure free public access to them, I'd be ok with that.

With regard to the new trail passes you can bet that most of those fees are going to be plowed back into hiring a new army of forest cops to drive around in Ford Explorers writing tickets and collecting the fees that are paying their salaries. Is this really a qualitative improvement? As the late great Abbey said, growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of bureaucracy and the cancer cell.

If you're going to buy a pass, at least send a letter and tell them what you'd like to see them do with your money. If you choose not to buy a pass, good luck! If you get a ticket, please fight it.

~Uncle Tricky

[This message has been edited by Uncle Tricky (edited 08-13-2001).]

[mattp]

lambone -

Last spring there was a discussion of this topic wherein a link to an article about some recent General Accounting Office analysis was provided. Forrest said that the Forest Service's own public documents belie some of the arguments they make.

These things are published and circulated in such copious quanitites and are often poorly referenced, but if you don't believe Forrest or some wacko who has a website that sounds like maybe they dissaprove of all forms of government, and if you are interested in this issue, I bet the information is available from government sources.

I have indicated that I think it is outrageous to pay what was actually over $70 to hike a poor trail and camp in a crowded and as far as I could tell totally unregulated free-for-all for two nights, but most posts here have indicated that if the fees were to be used for trail maintenance of conservation or something that would actually benefit those who pay them, we'd gladly pay. Why don't you look into it, and let us know what you find out? We'll expect a full report.

By the way, I was in the Glacier ranger station (Mt. Baker) yesterday, and I told the ranger that I planned to go hiking without posting a use pass. Her reply was "we are not supposed to comment on that."

[allthumbs]

MattP

I was on the Ptarmigan Ridge at Baker yesterday. Went up to the glacier. Was yesterday a killer day or what. Weather doesn't get much better than that.

[Fairweather]

Uncle Tricky,

"The late great Abbey"?? Surely you jest! Edward Abbey's "Monkey Wrench Gang" book puts him in a class with Timothy McVeigh and Osama Bin Laden. The man was a terrorist and his book is rightly considered a terrorist handbook. You shouldn't evoke the words of a terrorist to decry an over zealous Forest Service/government. Edward Abbey is not quote-worthy.