The Future

[Lambone]

A little while ago I posted a message about the JCCA comp at Vertical World in Seattle. Saying that everyone should come check out part of the future of climbing.

Then some dude rights back about how kids who crank hard routes in the gym are not the future of climbing. That they need to get off their high horse, or some B.S.

In my opinion, you(you know who you are) are just jealous. And personally I don't think that just because you go put some bomber bolts on an old Beckey Aid line, you are defining the future of climbing. Or is it that you are just another one of those selfish guys who doesn't want to see these kids show up at "your" crag?

You all know the type, they sneer and turn their head when you walk up to the lower wall. You can see that they think they are tough cause they are toproping some 5.11 crack. They scoff cause you pull out some new shiny gear. Little do they know that these are your new, 2nd set of cams. And you just retired your old rope and harness. Whether you like it or not we are all here together, and there are alot of us, so you might as well break down and say hello.

Regardless of what this old fart says, my point is that the future of climbing lies in the hands of the kids. And kids who climb 13a in the gym are going to be the next ones to take this sport to another level. Look at whats been happening in the Valley the last few years. Those guys were just kids not long ago. I bet alot of them started in a gym.

Just cause Fred Beckey went out and snatched up all the most esthetic lines around here doesn't mean that the next generation wont be doing any first ascents. Any of you who thinks that the future of climbing begins and ends with them needs to let go of their ego before it corrupts some poor kid's mind.

Anyway, what are some other interpretations of where the future of our sport lies?

[highclimb]

i am just taking it in as it comes.......................AND LOVIN THE HELL OUT OF IT!!!

aidan (14 year old and proud)

[jblakley]

I climb because it keeps me in the moment. I also like the challenge of pushing whatever my current standard is. Perhaps it is my age (an old fartish 37) that unburdens me with the concern of where the future of climbing lies and who is going to take us there. To be honest the only issue of the future I am concerned with is that of access. I think it's really cool that climbing is evolving and harder stuff is being done but it does not keep me up at night worrying about it. Alright I'm off my little milk crate.

[Rodchester]

Ditto to jblakley.....

------------------

Have a nice day.

[W]

When I started climbing, I wasn't even aware that I was participating in a "sport", because I wasn't doing it to compete with other people. It was/is something I do because of the great relationships I have with my friends and partners, and because I love being in the mountains and meeting the challenges they offer.

"Sport", or more appropriately, indoor gym climbing and outdoor bolted climbing, has its place for me- as a training venue. Gyms can be a great place to train during the work week, and also are a great place for children and people of all ages to get started learning basics in a safe environment.

I don't mean to denounce the comps- but I find it peculiar that man, ever exercising his need to compare himself to others, his need to be better than the next guy, has let competition enter into climbing. As it is, it's always been there in so many subtle and not so subtle ways: from the friendly rivalries among alpinists, to dueling guide services, to heated races to grab first ascents, all the way to the stereotypical huge egos of fat-walleted seven summit tickers.

While I imagine that most people will say that the comps are merely for fun, and for many this may in fact be the case, having myself grown up playing league sports and seeing all of the "bad sports dads" (and moms), I have to say that teaching kids to climb and to develop a competitive attitude to go with their skills doesn't sound very healthy to me. No doubt some of these kids will take their talent and competitive attitudes outside and will stretch the boundaries. It is already happening, in fact. Yosemite history is being rewritten; on the other hand, in another light, the heavy air of competition and one-upsmanship hanging over the whole "scene", in my eyes at least, kind of tarnishes what are otherwise some outstanding achievements. Who cares what so and so did if they are just an arrogant an unapproachable person? Most at the top of the climbing standard are not like this, of course, I don't mean to imply that. But it seems that modest climbers are getting harder to find these days.

So if you're asking where the future of our sport lies- for me, it isn't a sport, it is just a creative movement of my life; and the future of it to me lies the same as with all other aspects of my life: strong relationships, seeing the beauty, meeting great challenges, developing insight to transcend the limits of what I thought possible, and always- living the state of timelessness. Competition has no significance to me at all.

Just my view, anyway.

[rayborbon]

lambone,

I think you misunderstood the other guy's comments dude. I don't think he meant to slam any kids etc.

The way you comment here is not accurate to that person. BTW he is not an old fart unless you call 21 old.

I agree about some of the types of people you see around though.. I don't beleive he falls into this category since I met him for the first time recently. I will tell you he is a really nice guy.

 

-RB

[erik]

W

you type faster than me. so i will second your motion. to transending! here here!

competion bad- isn't that what wars are?

[This message has been edited by erik (edited 04-11-2001).]

[Chepe]

You just can't call some dude with no skills other than pulling hard the future. this isn't a coke commercial we don't all need to feel good the save mother earth

 

[Wallstein]

Matt-

Why would I be jealous?

And did I ever say I was defining the future myself. It takes a generation of climbers to define the future. Hey I would love to see these kids show up at "our" crags.

Yes I do know the type that sneers when you walk up to the lower wall. Most of the time they are the people that don't climb at index often. They are the people that were taught that competition with others is part of our sport. I do to compete, but it is internally with myself and not externally with others. And yes I do pull out shiny new gear and little do most poeple know that its not my 1st nor 2nd set of cams. And the rope I am tying into is the 5th rope this year for me. Everytime I am at the crags I walk around and say hello to people. So what is your point Matt. There are some rude people that climb. People that know me know that I am not like that at all.

What is the next level these kids are going to take our sport to? And another number grade doesn't count as another level.

What people are you talking about in the Valley? Dean, Timmy, Chris Mac, Cedar, Miles, Erik Sloan, Russ, Eric George, Ammon Mcneally. If these are these are the people in the valley you are talking about Chris is the only one to have started in the gym. So I don't see your point again.

I really hope more people from my generation start putting up first ascents. Then we might be part of the future of our sport. But as of now another letter grade higher or another sport route at little si isn't the future.

-mike

p.s. goodbye to everyone, I am going to Yosemite today for a couple of months.

[Lambone]

Ok man, sorry.

Don't get so defensive. My point wasn't to try to slam you. I don't even know you.

I am more talking about an attitude rather than an individual. I sensed an attitude when I read your post about comp kids, and it upset me. Just trying to keep this site interesting.-matt

P.S. have fun, now I'm the jealous one!!!!

 

[highclimb]

Dane,

Well said

Aidan

[wydrav13]

all i can say is that, when im in a comp, i climb like i weigh about 4oo pds, and have just dropped a load in my pants, and have never seen a rock before. i hate it, i climb so bad its not funny. i hate that external competion. comps. arent fun for me, but the free prizes kick ass, my two cents

 

[kevin]

I feel that gym and sport climbing have created an entire new sport. Even the most basic gear- shoes, harness, rope, carabiners - have developed entirely differently from traditional climbing and mountaineering. Even ice climbing is developing this same division with these new mixed "sport" ice routes. I like most of you all, climb for the aestheitcs of the envrionment and for personal challenge and have a hard time relating to the competitive spirit and number-hunting of sport climbers.

It seems to me that if we want to look at the future of climbing we need to start differentiating between the future of sport/gym climbing and the future of trad/mountaineering. I don't have any problem with this division - I can climb as I like and sport climbers can continue to push for 5.15. I think the biggest problems come from not distinguishing between the two. I personally have seen great sport climbers epic in the mountains because of a little run out or route finding. As long as climbers can distinguish that two very different types of climbing have developed (and possible the corresponding attitudes/ethics or each type) I think many of these debates will start to disapear. Let me know if you think I'm off track.

Kevin

[mvs]

"Little-league" style competition would have killed my love for climbing, had I been subjected to it. Thank god I wasn't twisting up 5.12 in 6th grade. It's the last thing I would want to do now.

Not that I'd do anything but twist painfully off a 5.12!

--Michael

ps - however I'm sure young Aidan here would love a field trip to Little Si! Pitch it as a self-esteem workshop...submit a lesson plan!

[highclimb]

yeah i found climbing after i quite wasting time with little league sports like soccer and baseball. i hate being told how to do something by a coach. i was tramatized, my coach would yell at me all the time and i never got to play. climbing really brought me out of that slump. i could finally do things at my pace and take in the beutiful outdoors and alpine settings, like boston basin. when i was sitting on that solar shiter looking across at JBerg it was bliss (i know thats why to much information ) i felt like the luckiest 13 year old in Washington.

good idea MVS but how about leavenworth or maybe if i get lucky the pickets. yeah thats it. it can for fitness

Aidan

[This message has been edited by highclimb (edited 04-11-2001).]

[dan_e]

This touches on an interesting topic that should be explored more. I agree and disagree with some of the comments. I do think that there are many amazing young climbers out there, and some of them might actually climb into adulthood. What about the stories of 16 kids with advanced, acute tendonitis? Many kids have the advantage of a high strength to weight ratio, but if they push to hard at that age there is a good chance they won't be climbing hard when they 30. I agree with 'W' that there are few modest climbers nowadays, it seems that many new climbers want to climb to brag or to win a trophy. The greatest thing about climbing is that none of that matters, I compete with myself and no one else and climbing has never been a 'sport' in my opinion.

[Lambone]

Hey Kevin,

A point well made, but in my opinon, the future of climbing lies in combining the two forms of climbing,(sport and alpine) rather than seperating them.

Take a look at Tommy Caldwell for instance. I don't know him, but from what I've read, he developed his strong sport climbing skills, and then took them to the Big stone. Routes like the Salathe. Then he goes back to try to put up one of the hardest sport routes in the world on some choss pile that everyone has written off. Then he goes and tries to apply his speed and strength to routes in Kyrgisthan(?). He and his stong parteners almost get killed, but does that stop him. No, he comes back to the Captain and frees another sick route. With a girl nontheless. Now this gives me inspiration!

Which brings me to another important point. Over half of the competetors at the Seattle comp. were girls. That is rad in itself. There are two many macho dudes climbing out there. And if the girls are brought into the sport by team competition, then so what. At least they are learning to love the "dance".

As far as morals, that is up to the parents. And tendonitis, well lets hope they have good coaches. thanks- Lambone

[Jens]

I guess I have a story that relates to the previous discussions. I started rock climbing every day I could at 13. As time progressed, I trained for and entered some of the early comps down when the old original vertical world was on elliot. I'm almost 28 now and am an alpinist. I rarely sport climb anymore.

Yeah, some of those kids will not be climbing in 10 years but a few will. And perahps even a couple might become "mountaineers" Those few will be the ones tearing it up. Having a sport background all their life will make pulling that rad mixed move with a big pack on seem all the more sane. Obsessions with bouldering as kids will provide mucho emotional support in the mountains and on the ice. Those new kids in the gym in these modern times can really pull!

[greghinemeyer]

you are absolutley correct boner, and i hate the smell of the smell of polo.

[Fence_Sitter]

Lambone said:

Hey Kevin,<P>A point well made, but in my opinon, the future of climbing lies in combining the two forms of climbing,(sport and alpine) rather than seperating them.<P>Take a look at Tommy Caldwell for instance. I don't know him, but from what I've read, he developed his strong sport climbing skills, and then took them to the Big stone. Routes like the Salathe. Then he goes back to try to put up one of the hardest sport routes in the world on some choss pile that everyone has written off. Then he goes and tries to apply his speed and strength to routes in Kyrgisthan(?). He and his stong parteners almost get killed, but does that stop him. No, he comes back to the Captain and frees another sick route. With a girl nontheless. Now this gives me inspiration!<P>Which brings me to another important point. Over half of the competetors at the Seattle comp. were girls. That is rad in itself. There are two many macho dudes climbing out there. And if the girls are brought into the sport by team competition, then so what. At least they are learning to love the "dance".<P>As far as morals, that is up to the parents. And tendonitis, well lets hope they have good coaches. thanks- Lambone

 

bone. it seems to me that where you differ form others on this board is that you are emphasizing grades whereas others like aiden (highclimb) are drawn to the lack of competition and beauty of the outdoors. most people could care less if tehy can crank 5.15 in the gym, but would rather have the security taht the outdoors are there for them to enjoy on their terms. as aiden said, it is about getting away from the 'coach' mentality adn i find it disturbing that many yound climbers have 'coaches' i think we just have different viewpoints as to waht climbing means to us and time will tell whether or not it is a reconcilable difference. i'm a yungun too and do not appreciate what my generation is doing to climbing and would like to see gym climbing as its own sport because the only thing connected to our respective types of climbing is that gym climbing is practice for the outdoors. if this competition continues you will see gerater adn greater diversification in the climbing world.

[erik]

I DONT KNOW WHY I AM POSTING TO THIS..

 

BUT FENCE SHUT THE FUCK UP..THIS WAS LIKE 2 YEARS AGO. I HAVE CLIMBED WITH LAMBONE AND FIND HIM TO BE A GREAT PARTNER, WHETER ON THE BIG STONE, THE ALPINE OR CRAGGING. MORE THEN I CAN SAY FOR YOU. HE DOESNT SEEM TO FEEL THE NEED TO ATTACK WHAT OTHERS THINK OR SAY. BUT HE CONTINUALLY TRIES TO FIND OUT WHAT HE CAN DO.

 

SHUT THE FUCK UP.....

 

YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO EUROPE.

 

 

[catbirdseat]

Erik, that was a most out of characterist post for such a mellow fellow.

[Lambone]

haha, funny to see this thread again.

 

bone. it seems to me that where you differ form others on this board is that you are emphasizing grades whereas others like aiden (highclimb) are drawn to the lack of competition and beauty of the outdoors. most people could care less if tehy can crank 5.15 in the gym, but would rather have the security taht the outdoors are there for them to enjoy on their terms. as aiden said, it is about getting away from the 'coach' mentality adn i find it disturbing that many yound climbers have 'coaches' i think we just have different viewpoints as to waht climbing means to us and time will tell whether or not it is a reconcilable difference. i'm a yungun too and do not appreciate what my generation is doing to climbing and would like to see gym climbing as its own sport because the only thing connected to our respective types of climbing is that gym climbing is practice for the outdoors. if this competition continues you will see gerater adn greater diversification in the climbing world.

 

Fence Sitter-

 

Ok, first of all...when the hell have you ever seen me emphisizing grades on this board? I'd like to see one example. And where the hell do you get off insinuating that I am not "drawn to the lack of competition and beauty of the outdoors." Ya got me pegged all wrong there buddy.

 

Anyway, regarding competition climbing, gyms, coaches, etc. I think its great for kids. I don't see how it's any different from any other organized sport, kids have fun trying to out do one another, it's their nature. Adults arn't much different.

 

And whats wrong with "greater, and greater diversification in the climbing world?" Would you prefer that everyone climbed on your terms, and enjoyed climbing in only the ways in which you do?

 

The only thing I find wrong with the new generation of climbers is how quick they are to judge other people.