Drederek Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Most guidebooks rate OS one star better than D. I think that may be wrong. Both rated 5.9. The particulars (as I see it): Drive to OS 2/3 freeway 1/3 highway with views. D 3/4 freeway with closeup views. OS by a nose. Parking breakins OS-1 D-0. D. Hike OS Dry, steep 70 min. D moist, 2/3 flat, 1/3 steep 75 min + bonus waterfalls. D easily. 3rd class scramble to base. OS most of pitch one & two . D 150+ meters. D again. Pitches OS 6+ D 10 D one more time. Awesome handcrack OS 300 feet D 30 feet. OS for sure. Exposure similar. Summit OS goat infested campsite. D knife edge ridge with entirely new views. D. Descent OS 30 min scramble. D 60 min rap with rope eating crack. OS, especially if you don't see the REC. Views OS acres of granite slopes and towers, LW. D acres of granite slopes and towers, no towns and many peaks in the N Cascades. D once more. Partiess seen on route at one time by me OS 6 D 3. D comes thru again. By my count Dreamer wins 8 to 4. Feel free to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I feel free to but I won't because you're right. For some reason Snow Creek Wall gets more aclaim than it deserves. And I would add that looking back on it I have much fonder memories of Orbit than OS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 You don't have to get a permit to climb Dreamer. There is a Leavenworth bias in this state cause it was the first cragging area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I'll stick up for our old friend Outer Space. The 300 ft. handcrack sucks up gear and hands like no other while Dreamer is mostly scampering up slabs. Crux on Outer Space is way more fun than Dreamer (screw style, just jump for the flake). Goats? How can you not like a curious animal that watches you from the base and than greets you at the top? The views from Dreamer are better, esp. in fall when everything turns orange, but in terms of climbing- Outer Space is the clear winner. DISCLAIMER: The above opinion is bias in the fact that I've done done OS multiple times while I've only made it just past the short handcrack on D. In fact the only pitches I HAVE done on D is the handcrack and the pitch just below it, but hell those bottom pitches all looked like twinkle toe slab dancn' to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Both of these routes are infinitely better than other routes that get three and four stars in the Leavenworth guide. I thought Dreamer was a shade harder, but it's been years. If we were to lose one of the two routes in an earthquake, and let's say that we were forced to choose between the two, I'd have to choose Outerspace. Although both routes have their attractions, I think the goats around Snow Creek Wall make it particularly inviting for lonely mountain climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Personally I think sometimes the whole star issue is bullshit since I find many climbs that are superb not with stars..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalun_D Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Have to go with Dreamer, but it is close. Dreamer longer + technically harder + more varied climbing + longer slab + easier approach + rope eater OW (rapping 4th? pitch) - rap descent - (need to check out walk off)  Outer Space  Longer hand crack + No fixed gear or belay stations + Easy walk off + too short - tics, tics, tics --- crowded -  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 A better comparison in terms of amount of climbing is to do Outer Space and Orbit. Dreamer: shorter driving time nicer approach and scenery less people more bolts well-protected slabs better scenery no goats no trail-pass required Outer Space + Orbit less bolts awesome handcrack walkdown descent more dry more varied climbing goats looks like 7-5 for Dreamer in my tally Chuck   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus_Engley Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 I haven't done Dreamer yet, but I have to toss in an uncompared strike against Outer Space for the descent. I see that many of you have given it points for being an easy walk off, but when I did it (and I'll admit up front that the whole day was a series of small mistakes) it took us something like 6 hours from the top back to the base. Of course, this was late season, and we topped out in pitch dark. I expect that skews my little data point a bit... If I top out in the dark again on that route, I'll be sleeping up there with the goats. I must go back and do it again, so I can enjoy the upper pitches instead of sprinting through them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblakley Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Wow 6 hours? It seems to me like it only takes about 30 mins or so but I have never timed it. Of course that's in daylight. Walking off is almost always quicker and safer than rapelling. [This message has been edited by jblakley (edited 08-07-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted August 7, 2001 Author Share Posted August 7, 2001 It seems "great minds think alike" er sorry you other guys. I forgot to mention finding womens lingerie on the hike in to Dreamer. Does that help? Also have done OS and MJD in a day (Orbit was jammed). Walking the descent twice sucked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus_Engley Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 jblakely, I totally agree about walk-off v. rappelling. The only thing that I can think is that the descent is more obvious in the light (duh). The whole way down it seemed like the little section of gully within the cone of our headlamps was always the same, always steep, and always leading to another dead end. We rapped once (from a tree with a clump of slings on it, I'll note) and had to do a short bit of scrambling back up to the base of the climb. The whole time we were just trying to go down and to the left, especially closer to the bottom, but we kept getting turned back by dead ends. By the time we got to our packs it was 2 a.m. I expect dehydration and general tiredness played a *big* part in our slow descent... We ended up crawling into our packs and waiting for sunrise, then spent the following day lolling in hot tubs and eating everything we could find in Leavenworth. Der Waffle Haus has excellent breakfast, by the way... m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 Doing the Remorse start improves Outer Space dramaticly. Walk off is a breeze. Tried Dreamer numerous times, still haven't made it all the way. Always end up? New recent beta may help. Have to go with Orbit currently. Longer than OS, more climbing/less scrambling, and more varied. Same painless walk off. We'll see after I complete Dreamer. Lack of crowds is nice! Snow creek mid-week isn't so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 OK here's the OS beta. Do the RPM start (you can avoid the 10d slab part). If you can't handle the 10b moves through the roof you can either aid them OR you can escape left where it gets hard using an easy but quite exposed traverse, which puts you back on the easy finish of Remorse. I call this the RPmorse start. It goes at about 5.9. Be sure you protect before the crux mantel (you'll figure out what I'm talking about) because you won't find anything after that for a while [and watch the rope drag]. And here's the beta on Dreamer: check out the topo on Mattp's [mattp@seanet.com I think] page. It is WAY better than the topos in Nelson or Smoot. The topo in the Traveller's guide will also suffice but is not quite up to date on the recent boltage. Hope this helps, Chuck  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Blister Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 Yes, Matt Perkins' topo will get you to the top. We only made one route finding error (on the sixth pitch -- the 5.9+ pitch after the blue crack/gold flake pitch), and it was easily correctible. Three of us topped out in 7.5 hours, and took 2.5 hours to rap back to our gear at the base. Climbing Dreamer is more of an accomplishment than climbing Outer Space, in my opinion, but not necessarily "better." Dreamer has some rather uncomfortable belay stances. That's my two cents. John Sharp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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