marc_leclerc Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 "Im just saying that a 5.14 climber leading a 5.12+ R/X is almost safer than a newbie with no instruction and a shiny new rack trying to lead a 5.8.. placing gear all wrong and skeching up the route. I've seen a lot of it myself but nobody says anything about it, so why say strong climbers leading runout routes withing their abilities is stupid? I think you're stupid."Ya. Do I even need to respond? The R/X does mean something. Look it up. "Just not anytime soon." No shit it means something. But The strong guy on the R/X route (within his abilities) knows the danger and probably wont fall off and die. The newbs don't know what they are doing, how to place gear and how to climb and could easily fall and pull all the gear... but you just go and shit on everybody doing hard badas climbs? I think you just don't understand this stuff that is way out of your league... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyleaf Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Hey. Even experts die and fuck themselves up. Rapping off the ends of their ropes etc. You don't have to climb hard or soft to fuck up. I never fucked myself up while sketching up 5.8's when I was a noob. Get over yourself. Mum's the word, bitch. Get over yourself. Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 I've never looked up to pro climbers. The whole idea seems stupid to me. I go out and get mine, they get theirs... With you here... IF you want to send a hard r/x route just because "you want to"...that sound a little stupid. but then you completely blow it here. This just comes off sounding like the ongoing suburban homogenization of the sport and more of the very reason the sad term 'adventure climbing' exists at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted February 14, 2010 Author Share Posted February 14, 2010 " I think you just don't understand this stuff that is way out of your league..." Maybe not. Sorry, I seem to have offended a climbing God. I'm sure there is shit I know a lot more about than you do, including in the realm of climbing. But I won't be the one to show you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Im not high on myself... and I dont think im some sort of fucking clibming God. I just think that is is ridiculous of you to be bashing hard core climbers leading sketchy stuff that is way above most climbers abilities, dont impose your own fears and limitations on others! If someone tries to do some sick runout route and fucks up and gets really hurt.. well that was their thing, and if they succeed, well thats awesome! Just because you think something is dangerous doesnt mean no one should be allowed to do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted February 14, 2010 Author Share Posted February 14, 2010 (edited) I agree. Let them do it. Doesn't mean I can't weigh in. Perhaps if you look around you will realize that people die doing sketchy things. Old climbers and bold climbers but no old, bold climbers. I'll leave it at that bro. Edited February 14, 2010 by summitchaserCJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Old climbers and bold climbers but no old, bold climbers. The voice of inexperience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Old climbers and bold climbers but no old, bold climbers. I'll leave it at that bro. you wish there were no old, bold climbers. I know old climbers that lead stuff that scares the shit out of me! Mostly in the really, really runout, tenous friction slab category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted February 14, 2010 Author Share Posted February 14, 2010 (edited) "The voice of inexperience!" Who are you referring to? Me? You don't know me man. Don't hate. If you don't think it is true you are the one who is inexperienced, with all due respect. I think some of the stuff guys do in the mountains is incredible, really. But some of it is just nuts. Right on the edge of sanity. And if they want to do that, so be it. I'll read the TR. I'm not saying inexperience is good either. When I was learning I made my mistakes as we all do. That is what the mountains are all about. I still make mistakes sometimes. That is what it is all about. We like to walk that line between disaster and competence. Not only that but we want to push that line as far as we deem possible for satisfaction. Edited February 14, 2010 by summitchaserCJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted February 14, 2010 Author Share Posted February 14, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 That is what it is all about. We like to walk that line between disaster and competence. Not only that but we want to push that line as far as we deem possible for satisfaction. You just agreed with everything I have said than! Some people simply push the line a lot further for that maximum satisfaction than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Old climbers and bold climbers but no old, bold climbers. Coming from a family of test, military, and commercial pilots I know the origin of the phrase. And while solid conventional wisdom and good advice for a commercial flying career, it was never meant for the Chuck Yeagers of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyleaf Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Positive than a negative:"Old vs.Bold" 1.Fred Beckey 2.Wolfgang Gullich, Todd Skinner, John Bachar, Johnny Copp. To name a few... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_leclerc Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Positive than a negative:"Old vs.Bold" 1.Fred Beckey 2.Wolfgang Gullich, Todd Skinner, John Bachar, Johnny Copp. To name a few... the only old one in there is Beckey... plus Gullich and Skinner were freak accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyleaf Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 YUP. Positive, than a negative. Like I said earlier, people were born to fuck up. Shit happens. Hopefully you don't pull the short straw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannible Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 I tend to agree with Marc. The closest I ever came to getting myself killed was when I was a 5.8 to 5.9 climber. Didn't fully understand all of the risks (mostly in the mountains) and didn't completely know what I was doing. The worst situation I've ever been in involved climbing no harder than 5.4 but it was loose and I was alone. Now I find myself in similar situations, but I know how to deal them a better. What it comes down to is the more you climb, the more you know what you are doing. I'd guess that most 5.14 climbers know a whole lot about getting up 5.12's without killing themselves. Mistakes are a part of climbing. They will happen less often with experience, but we are human. Sometimes good climbers make mistakes and die, sometimes new climbers make mistakes and die. Sometimes things just go wrong and people die and the only mistake made was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact is that most of us, bold or not (we are all bold by most standards) will live long, healthy lives. But the bold will be the ones advancing the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainwreck Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 "i climb leashless without umbilicals pretty much all the time. i also read alpinist. i hope i am okay." I donno, your profile says your a noob. profile view + roll eyes = internet victory Sounds like it's your belayer who needs to watch out.....but you're probably soloing... belayers doesn't use them either so we're okay with the hazard falling tools pose. i don't use umbilicals soloing either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahT Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 So much of what we think is our "experience" keeping us safe, is stoopid, dumb luck. Good climbers die on "easy" stuff . We control much less than we think we do, but we have to lie to ourselves a bit because success is so sweet. Note: I haven't read the whole thread, nor am I talking to anyone in particular Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 So much of what we think is our "experience" keeping us safe, is stoopid, dumb luck. So true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) What happened? I remember the runout above the #4 RP placement on "Slow Children" (an Index classic I did in 1983) like it was yesterday. Today's routes can't make that kind of memory. Now I start at the left edge of the crag and work my way right looking for a pump because there's no mental challenge to be had. This is from Twight's old Grivel NA site. I am not sure if he wrote it but.... I can recall nobody saying that Sloe Children was runout. I remember back then sewing it up with regular stoppers. Now as far as starting at the left and getting a pump moving right....Walkin' The Dog, Strength Through Bowling (Until last year), Virgin On The Ridiculous, Tantric Baooka all start from the ground and were sigificantly more pg/r rated than Sloe Children despite new gear technology. Moving on to today's routes Amandla extension has some good fall potential, Stern Farmer p2 has a pretty good runout off a .4 TCU, The 10% p1 extension also has much longer falls than any place on Sloe Children. This quote is a perfect example of spoon feeding the public shit in order to sell a product. Way back machine link: http://web.archive.org/web/20071019005636/http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/headlines.php?id=7 Edited February 16, 2010 by Peter_Puget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I tend to agree with Marc. The closest I ever came to getting myself killed was when I was a 5.8 to 5.9 climber. Didn't fully understand all of the risks (mostly in the mountains) and didn't completely know what I was doing. The worst situation I've ever been in involved climbing no harder than 5.4 but it was loose and I was alone. Now I find myself in similar situations, but I know how to deal them a better. What it comes down to is the more you climb, the more you know what you are doing. I'd guess that most 5.14 climbers know a whole lot about getting up 5.12's without killing themselves. Mistakes are a part of climbing. They will happen less often with experience, but we are human. Sometimes good climbers make mistakes and die, sometimes new climbers make mistakes and die. Sometimes things just go wrong and people die and the only mistake made was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact is that most of us, bold or not (we are all bold by most standards) will live long, healthy lives. But the bold will be the ones advancing the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I tend to agree with Marc. The closest I ever came to getting myself killed was when I was a 5.8 to 5.9 climber. ... Many years ago, when some friends of mine were missing after climbing the N. Face of N. Twin (I think that was the climb), a ranger remarked that it was usually the relatively new or the very experienced climbers who, when reported missing, were dead. My friends made it, but the message I took home was that not only bumblies die in the mountains. Serious climbers -- especially serious climbers with the kind of "drive" that many of us say we aspire to -- die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 So, then my ability to remain mediocre for a really long time is a positive survival trait, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyleaf Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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