Lead Bolting Ethics....

[Bug]

Is that my queue?

[Bug]

Marc,

 

Thank you for pursuing this in an open forum.

 

I look forward to watching your climbing carreer flourish.

 

Keith

[el jefe]

queue |kyoō|

noun

1 chiefly Brit. a line or sequence of people or vehicles awaiting their turn to be attended to or to proceed.

2 Computing a list of data items, commands, etc., stored so as to be retrievable in a definite order, usually the order of insertion.

3 (archaic) a braid of hair worn at the back.

 

cue 1 |kyoō|

noun

a thing said or done that serves as a signal to an actor or other performer to enter or to begin their speech or performance.

 

[Kimmo]

It's a tube used when muffdiving.

 

 

u don't really like muffdiving all that much, do you?

[Kimmo]

I trust his judgment on evaluating the natural protection available on a route and I know the local rock patterns.

 

You guys are niggling at points that should be obvious from the OP. He just wants to climb with a pure style and doesn't have a lot of experience bolting on lead. There aren't really a lot of locals for him to talk to. In fact G-spotter is probably the best person for him to ask. He's probably the only person to respond who knows exactly the line in question, the history of the area and I know he's climbed with Marc.

 

Anyway, this is turning into a waste of time.

 

so he wants to climb with a "pure" style, does he? yet all you can do is moan and whine about those who suggest a "pure" style potentially might entail eschewing bolts.... strange canuckian logic you've been dealin' out in yer posts.

[el jefe]

why is bolting on lead "pure" and rap-bolting "impure"? the route has been/will be cleaned on rappel, hence previewed, so what's the big deal about bolting it on lead? if marc wants the experience of bolting on lead then i say go for it and choose the tactic (hand drilling or bosch) that you are interested in learning about, but drop the "pure" bullshit and all the judgmental crap implied by the term.

[Kimmo]

hey he was fishing for "purity" here, and suggestions were simply given as to what that might mean. many suggestions. many many oh boy.

 

don't say that bolting it on lead wouldn't be more engaging both intellectually and emotionally. IF it needs bolts. "needs". hmph.

so one might conflate "purity" with "commitment" and "engagement", i suppose....and if one does, undoubtedly rap-bolting would be less "pure".

[kevbone]

I think this entire thread was a troll. It does make for some good cc.com talk.

[kevbone]

why is bolting on lead "pure" and rap-bolting "impure"? the route has been/will be cleaned on rappel, hence previewed, so what's the big deal about bolting it on lead? if marc wants the experience of bolting on lead then i say go for it and choose the tactic (hand drilling or bosch) that you are interested in learning about, but drop the "pure" bullshit and all the judgmental crap implied by the term.

 

Quote of the day.

[kukuzka1]

i havent read the whole post so heres my opinion. at crags id say to make it fun and rap bolt it,unless that goes against the local traditions.

[corvallisclimb]

You are saying that I am calling out good friends of yours - this is in references to the Fralicks and the bolts they have placed at Flagstone, correct?

 

Do you agree that there should be bolts every 3-4 feet on a low angle slab?

 

Do you agree with bolts that were not involved with a routes first ascent but were added later for the sake of a larger mass appeal?

 

It wouldn't be a waste of time - as another poster stated - if there was at least some discussion over what "good" bolting practices are. Corvallisclimb - you bolt, why don't you bring something to the table instead of focusing on a broken record(Bolts vs. No-Bolts). How should this Marc person go about his plight stylistically?

 

BTW As far as -"You act like you know fucking everything and everyone on here is wrong and a total wanker" - Climbing ethics is completely subjective. What is true for you may not be true for others. I'm actually in agreement with a great number of people that have posted on this topic that have focused on what the climbers before Marc have done in regard to his route development dilemma.

 

 

Dude did you fully miss the point? You are still fucking wrong and talking shit on people you know nothinig about. THEY DID NOT PLACE THOSE BOLTS YOUR TALKING ABOUT. So seriously can it. As for those bolts ya I obviously don't like em but I'm not some ethical prock whos going out chopping bolts, so thats that the bolts are there end of discussion. I have no desire to bitch about bolts. I'm just trying to stand up for some friends who don't deserve to be ridiculed by someone who doesn't even know them.

 

Since I led off from the discussion at hand heres my two cents for Marc.

 

50' lead bolted crag routes are kinda lame. If its super run out no one will do it and it will become a moss fest like everything. If you bolt from hooks bolts could be in the wrong places like people have been saying especially if you think its 5.12. Hand drilling on lead is great fun, and feels damn good. But where were at today in climbing save your time and energy and rap bolt a good line. Use that extra time and energy and strength you gained to go put up a sweet groud up route in a little bigger setting. But obviously if you just want practice go up and bolt it on lead with a hand drill and some hooks. Though the end product might not be as good. It's your choice thats why climbings fun.

[marc_leclerc]

 

don't say that bolting it on lead wouldn't be more engaging both intellectually and emotionally. IF it needs bolts. "needs". hmph.

so one might conflate "purity" with "commitment" and "engagement", i suppose....and if one does, undoubtedly rap-bolting would be less "pure".

 

Maybe those are the words I was searching for... engagement. Like in alpine grades, it is all about engagement. Two routes can be 5.10 A2+, but one can be 'D+' and one can be 'ED2'. Obviously the second is more 'engaging' and for anyone climbing at that standard will be more memorable. I for one like memorable routes, even if I was scared as shit leading them, you really remember then later, and that is how I think this one should be... engaging.

 

Other routes in the area were done ground up, with minimal bolts for the most part. I once made the mistake of asking someone to bolt a line I had just cleaned, and said to put them at tgood stances, and not so far apart that it would get an R rating. My friend, with good intentions, bolted the line and I came back to find 8 bolts in 15 meters, totally overbolted with closely contrived clips that are in terrible locations and such, and I was later emberassed to call the route mine, without clarifying that I did not equipp it with the botls. I never wanted that to happen again, adn that is when I became WAY stricter about bolts I place and I dont tell people to bolt my lines without making sure they do it the way I want...

 

The only natural pro on this route would be taped on BAT hooks in acouple pockets, that might hold, abut there will need to be a couple bolts or it will mostly be a free solo, and it is hard and insecure looking. The only thing I have closely checked out that I can compare it too is maybe War of the Raptors at the base of the grand wall...

[el jefe]

hey he was fishing for "purity" here, and suggestions were simply given as to what that might mean. many suggestions. many many oh boy.

 

don't say that bolting it on lead wouldn't be more engaging both intellectually and emotionally. IF it needs bolts. "needs". hmph.

so one might conflate "purity" with "commitment" and "engagement", i suppose....and if one does, undoubtedly rap-bolting would be less "pure".

 

i get it that people conflate "commitment" with "purity", kimmo, that's what i'm questioning here. according to the dictionary, purity = freedom from adulteration or contamination -- why not just say "commitment" and drop the more judgmental term? i'm okay with the idea that someone might want to attempt a new line in a more "engaging" style (bathooks held in place by putty, small wires behind fragile flakes), but i'm not willing to grant that the climber who chooses the more engaging style is somehow "purer" than the one who doesn't or that the one who doesn't has somehow "contaminated" his route; they are just interested in exploring a different aspect of the game, and one is no "purer" than the other.

[marc_leclerc]

i'm okay with the idea that someone might want to attempt a new line in a more "engaging" style (bathooks held in place by putty, small wires behind fragile flakes), but i'm not willing to grant that the climber who chooses the more engaging style is somehow "purer" than the one who doesn't or that the one who doesn't has somehow "contaminated" his route; they are just interested in exploring a different aspect of the game, and one is no "purer" than the other.

 

Yeah, i just coulnt quite find the words I was looking for in my OP. Commitment and engagement are more what I was getting at, not being judgemental.

[el jefe]

i think it's great that you want to attempt an FA in a more engaging and committing style. you are obviously a talented young climber and exploring new ways of climbing is definitely a good thing. best of luck to you, marc.

[jmace]

and exploring new ways of climbing is definitely a good thing. best of luck to you, marc.

 

Or just buy a car so you can go to an established rock climbing venue instead of the nearest piece of rock you can bike ride too

 

 

[Off_White]

I reckon Marc has plenty of responses to consider, lets let this thread run out and go argue about Oregon or whatever elsewhere please.

 

After a certain number of pages it all turns to spray anyway, and I'd rather not ship this thread out of the forum.

[layton]

You are saying that I am calling out good friends of yours - this is in references to the Fralicks and the bolts they have placed at Flagstone, correct?

 

Do you agree that there should be bolts every 3-4 feet on a low angle slab?

 

Do you agree with bolts that were not involved with a routes first ascent but were added later for the sake of a larger mass appeal?

 

It wouldn't be a waste of time - as another poster stated - if there was at least some discussion over what "good" bolting practices are. Corvallisclimb - you bolt, why don't you bring something to the table instead of focusing on a broken record(Bolts vs. No-Bolts). How should this Marc person go about his plight stylistically?

 

BTW As far as -"You act like you know fucking everything and everyone on here is wrong and a total wanker" - Climbing ethics is completely subjective. What is true for you may not be true for others. I'm actually in agreement with a great number of people that have posted on this topic that have focused on what the climbers before Marc have done in regard to his route development dilemma.

 

 

Dude did you fully miss the point? You are still fucking wrong and talking shit on people you know nothinig about. THEY DID NOT PLACE THOSE BOLTS YOUR TALKING ABOUT. So seriously can it. As for those bolts ya I obviously don't like em but I'm not some ethical prock whos going out chopping bolts, so thats that the bolts are there end of discussion. I have no desire to bitch about bolts. I'm just trying to stand up for some friends who don't deserve to be ridiculed by someone who doesn't even know them.

 

Since I led off from the discussion at hand heres my two cents for Marc.

 

50' lead bolted crag routes are kinda lame. If its super run out no one will do it and it will become a moss fest like everything. If you bolt from hooks bolts could be in the wrong places like people have been saying especially if you think its 5.12. Hand drilling on lead is great fun, and feels damn good. But where were at today in climbing save your time and energy and rap bolt a good line. Use that extra time and energy and strength you gained to go put up a sweet groud up route in a little bigger setting. But obviously if you just want practice go up and bolt it on lead with a hand drill and some hooks. Though the end product might not be as good. It's your choice thats why climbings fun.

 

Well said!

[marc_leclerc]

and exploring new ways of climbing is definitely a good thing. best of luck to you, marc.

 

Or just buy a car so you can go to an established rock climbing venue instead of the nearest piece of rock you can bike ride too

 

 

I'm working on that, its so fucking complicated today though. You have to pass all these tests that cost money, then buy a car, get insurance... ect... its not like I can just have my liscence and car tomorrow!

 

But even when I get my car, Im still going to be putting up new routes in the Fraser Valley, I like doing FA's just as much as repeating Squamish classics!

Edited February 4, 2010 by marc_leclerc

[hafilax]

I trust his judgment on evaluating the natural protection available on a route and I know the local rock patterns.

 

You guys are niggling at points that should be obvious from the OP. He just wants to climb with a pure style and doesn't have a lot of experience bolting on lead. There aren't really a lot of locals for him to talk to. In fact G-spotter is probably the best person for him to ask. He's probably the only person to respond who knows exactly the line in question, the history of the area and I know he's climbed with Marc.

 

Anyway, this is turning into a waste of time.

 

so he wants to climb with a "pure" style, does he? yet all you can do is moan and whine about those who suggest a "pure" style potentially might entail eschewing bolts.... strange canuckian logic you've been dealin' out in yer posts.

I wasn't whining trying to avoid bolts. People were talking about leading this thing on gear which isn't an option and should have been obvious from the OP. There are tons of slabs in Squamish that are bolted just like this route and some of them are even area classics. Trying leading Local Boys Do Good without bolts.

 

For the record I think it should probably be left as a top rope if there's an easy walk off. If not then bolting it is a reasonable option IMO.

[Tony_Bentley]

Am I the only one that read the first post and moved all the way to the end to say that this is the dumbest post ever? Rappel it, bolt it however you want and call it good. You think a roto-hammer is going to make it a pure route? Go climb a 5.10 on Mox or NE face of Terror and bring some pro and maybe some pins.

[hafilax]

Am I the only one that read the first post and moved all the way to the end to say that this is the dumbest post ever? Rappel it, bolt it however you want and call it good. You think a roto-hammer is going to make it a pure route? Go climb a 5.10 on Mox or NE face of Terror and bring some pro and maybe some pins.

No, your post is dumber.

 

When Bachar wants to bolt something ground up from hooks it's bold and traditional. When Marc wants to do it it's dumb?

Edited February 4, 2010 by hafilax

[Kimmo]

I wasn't whining trying to avoid bolts. People were talking about leading this thing on gear which isn't an option and should have been obvious from the OP.

 

There you go again.

[hafilax]

Please enlighten me. Where am I going wrong?

[Dirtyleaf]

Bolted sporty routes bring up such emotional turmoil! Such passion and desire! Its like the romantic novel you stare at while in line to pay for your groceries at safeway. Inspiration. The Bigger Picture. Right.