Top Rope Getup

[Lambone]

One more thing,

As for whether our gym is more dangerous than others, I couldn't say. I've only been to a few gyms in my lifetime, and only worked at one.

I'll tell you one thing, our entire staff puts saftey and risk management at the highest priority. We have regular meetings on saftey issues, and have been trained in first aid. The people who climb at VW are most often our friends, and we never want to see anyone get hurt. Plus, of course we don't want to get sued and lose our jobs. Come take our belay test, then go to a different gym and take theirs. Then decide for yourself which gym puts saftey above of making money.

Hope that answers your question.

[Lambone]

quote:

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Originally posted by chucK:

I'm curious about your report of "rope failure". I understand it was not the gym's rope. Did someone snap a rope on a lead fall at VW? If so, any more details? If not, what happened?

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: chucK ]

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No rope has snapped, but I have seen sheaths fail. It was at the first clip on a lead route. We try to replace the biners once every few months, but I think it was just an old rope. So many people use their oldest crappiest ropes to climb with in the gym, but the fall forces are just the same inside....

[chucK]

So was someone injured because the sheath failed? Why would that be?

How did they get injured falling on the first clip? Isn't that below the bouldering line?

When I go to the gym, I use a rope that I haven't used outside in a long time. I guess I figure I'm never going to be more than like 3 feet from the bolt, and of course, if the rope did fail, that pea gravel is a lot more forgiving than most landings outside!

[Lambone]

Thats true...

Sorry, I should have been more specific. No, no one was hurt due to the sheath completely failing(all the way around), and yes they were still below the bouldering limit. It was really no big deal...

I guess I was just trying to make the point that climbing in the gym can be dangerous as well, and equipment can fail anywhere.

[Retrosaurus]

Stay away from sport climbers and especially gym climbers. They are lemmings; mindlessly throwing themselves off precipices.

[glen]

Climing-wise, I grew up in BFE with only a few choss piles available for TRs. My best friend and I sat down with a book on top of the choss and managed to figure it out. We erred on the side of overkill, took 2 hours to set up the first one and are still alive. If someone did happen across us who knew more than we did, we sponged info. It is possible to do it on your own, if you engage your brain. There are very few mystical qualities to TR anchors, jsut some basic mechanical common sense.

oh yeah, and beware the complacency of the gym... those sodium lights can give a meaaaan sunburn...

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

Stay away from sport climbers and especially gym climbers. They are lemmings; mindlessly throwing themselves off precipices.

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I thought that was BASE jumpers?

[max]

quote:

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Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

Stay away from sport climbers and especially gym climbers. They are lemmings; mindlessly throwing themselves off precipices.

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The word "precipices" sounds and looks like "testpieces".

[Bug]

quote:

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Originally posted by max:

The word "precipices" sounds and looks like "testpieces".

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And presupposes you have testicles.

[allison]

Lambone, I'm curious about this sheath failure thing. It's my understanding that the sheath is a protective covering over the nylon strands on the inside. In the gym the ony thing that the bare strands would rub against is the aluminum of the 'draws, and it seems to me that even with the sharp angle to the first draw, and given that there's no load 'till you fall, on lead, that the rope would hold up at least for a little while before failing. Aluminum is soft! Surely the kernmantle sheath is better on the force of abrasion than the nylong strands, but are they totally useless without the sheath? Did you see the rope?

I am just curious because I am a lemming.

[Lambone]

quote:

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Originally posted by allison:

Lambone, I'm curious about this sheath failure thing. It's my understanding that the sheath is a protective covering over the nylon strands on the inside. In the gym the ony thing that the bare strands would rub against is the aluminum of the 'draws, and it seems to me that even with the sharp angle to the first draw, and given that there's no load 'till you fall, on lead, that the rope would hold up at least for a little while before failing. Aluminum is soft! Surely the kernmantle sheath is better on the force of abrasion than the nylong strands, but are they totally useless without the sheath? Did you see the rope?

I am just curious because I am a lemming.

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No that’s a really good question (although a bit confusing), and I'll get into it a bit more...

The rope may have been damaged before the two started climbing and the leader fell on it. However, there are two important words that you mentioned which might have caused the failure of the sheath:

1. "the sharp angle of the rope to the first draw"2. "Aluminum is soft!"

These two issues are interrelated, let me try and explain the problem.

Many people who lead in the gym, outside or otherwise, have this strange notion that the proper place to stand while belaying is out away from the wall. This distance from the wall creates a "sharp angle of the rope" that you mentioned. This technique creates several problems, the first being that it reduces the ability of the belayer to absorb the fall dynamically, second it creates a situation where a belayer that is jerked from a fall could fall lose control of the rope, and or get injured themselves (the solution to this is to anchor the belayer to the ground which creates an even more static fall). Third, and particularly important in the gym where climbers are getting lowered off routes all day long, everyday...this "sharp angle" puts a lot of pressure on the first carabineer on the bottom clip. This causes the "soft aluminum" to wear out quickly...the ropes after repeated use actually burn through the metal! Ever wonder why your gym rope turns your hands black? That is aluminum oxide from the carabineers! This wear decreases the radius of the biner, significantly weakening it, and creates a sharp edge that can possibly cut a rope. Now here is the simple equation: Sharp biner + Old Rope with worn out sheath = Failed sheath!

This is an endless problem in the gym that we address daily, yet some folks just don't want to hear it. I'm not sure why people insist on standing out from the wall, some say it's because it allows them to see the climber better and causes less neck strain, and others say that they don't want the climber to land on their head. Both of these are common misconceptions, just like that good old misconception about clipping your belay biner through the two tie-in points instead of the belay loop.

I did see this event happen (again, no one was hurt), and I did see the rope afterward. It was an old rope, the sheath was cut all the way around and pulled apart completely, exposing the entire core. The core of the rope looked undamaged. We replaced the biner immediately. Incidentally we spend a lot of money on carabineers because some people insist on standing away from the wall instead of close to it. I'm sure this is a common problem in gyms across the country. We could put steel biners on the first clips, but people will inevitably complain about that because they don't clip as well.

The moral of this long-winded story: Stand close to the wall when you belay, and don't use old ropes, ever.

I saw a guy belaying an ice climber at ICY BC a while ago, who was standing at least thirty feet away from the bottom of the route...sitting down none-the-less! His partner was running it out and looked fairly gripped. I bit my lip, but thought to myself; if that guy falls he gunna deck for sure.

The funny thing is, the leader was a guide and the belayer was his client acting under his instruction. I kept my mouth shut reluctantly, and got the hell out of there.

Hope that answers your question.

[texplorer]

Damn Lambone,

I actually learned something from this post. What the hell is happening to CC.com? Pretty soon we will all be giving route descriptions and be talking about the good ole days when the site was nothing but spray.

[Lambone]

I tried the spray thing, but I'm not so good at it. As soon as I spray a little I start getting death threats

[allthumbs]

ya gotta be perverted, mean, and accusatory to be a good sprayer...just ask taz

[Dru]

so how do you stand close to the wall and not have 1) ice 2) rock and 3) climber fall on you? Bonme you have 25 minutes to reply or you fail the test!

[Lambone]

Wear a helmet. If you are sport climbing and the climber falls on you from above the first clip, it will be no big deal...kinda like playing tag football or something. Be ready to move from side to side abit to get out from directly under the climber. This is kinda hard if your strapped down to a big rock or tree or something.

If your in the mountains its different (of course). You need to take objective danger like rock and ice fall into consideration. Look for safe belay stances and try to move to the side instead of directly under the climber. Ussually on multi pitch stuff you'll be close to the wall anyway right...

Hows that, do I pass

[Dru]

Generally speaking when belaying an ice climber I prefer to stand far away from below the climber, and have them place first piece high up, than stand close and have first piece low down. Cause helmet dont do much good when 60lb chunk of ice hits you in the shoulder, I saw it happen in Johnson Canyon once. If you are worried about getting pulled towards the climber in the event of a fall - you can always set an anchor to hold yourself down.

bone I give you a B. suggest more alpine time and trad/ice to balance out your work related overconcentration on gym subjects.

[Lambone]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

bone I give you a B. suggest more alpine time and trad/ice to balance out your work related overconcentration on gym subjects.

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I concentrated on gym subjects because that was what allison asked me about.

I suggest that you don't make assumptions about the experience climbers may or may not posses.

I'll be concentrating on trad subjects as soon as Spring Break roles around. Thanks for the concern.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lambone:

I concentrated on gym subjects because that was what allison asked me about.

I suggest that you don't make assumptions about the experience climbers may or may not posses.

I'll be concentrating on trad subjects as soon as Spring Break roles around. Thanks for the concern.

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Your mark has just been revised to a C for talking back to your TA. Also you spelled "rolls" rong Keep it up and you may be forced to repeat this semester.

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: Dru ]

[Bug]

When belaying a leader you should be clipped in to an anchor that will keep you right where you want to be. Under an overhang on a soft pillow of moss with a wood fairy carressing your forehead is optimal but you may have to settle for just being held down.

Or I will eat you.

[Szyjakowski]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lambone:

The gym is the only place to learn anything about how to rock climb and mountaineer safely.

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what are you just a pusher?? GYMS SUCK ASS!!!!! the only way to learn to rock climb is to go out to the crags with people with the gear and knowledge...(see Erik and Dru posts for the reall deal)...nuff said

[allison]

Hey, Lambone, now I know who you are. You are the guy who has tried to correct my lead belaying technique in the gym a couple of times. I understand the physics of the whole thing, I have to do a fair amount of rigging in my work. I don't entirely agree with you, but I really don't feel like getting into the how and why of it. Sorry about the wear on the gear, but that is why we pay to use the gym.

[oldclimber]

Re: the original question that started this thread.

Buy a 40' piece of 1" tubular nylon. Tie the ends together with a water knot. You now have a 20' sling. Tie overhand knots every 16" or so. The result is an 18 0r 19 foot runner with multiple clip in points. Girth hitch a tree through the first loop, clip the rope with locking biners through a loop that allows the rope to clear the edge and then clip as many of the remaining points as you can to trees or pro leading back from the edge.

The individual clip in points virtually eliminate the possibility of total system failure if one anchor should pull. I've found this much easier to set up than a batch of various length slings and cordeletts.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by oldclimber:

Re: the original question that started this thread. Buy a 40' piece of 1" tubular nylon. Tie the ends together with a water knot. You now have a 20' sling. Tie overhand knots every 16" or so. The result is an 18 0r 19 foot runner with multiple clip in points. Girth hitch a tree through the first loop, clip the rope with locking biners through a loop that allows the rope to clear the edge and then clip as many of the remaining points as you can to trees or pro leading back from the edge. The individual clip in points virtually eliminate the possibility of total system failure if one anchor should pull. I've found this much easier to set up than a batch of various length slings and cordeletts.

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Buy a Hilti and a bunch of bolts and place a 3-bolt anchor wherever you want to TR. Then just clip the rope though draws. It isnt as safe but it will make you look like a cool sport climber