The Fallacy of Periodization?

[Kimmo]

The average climber might not reach their peak genetic potential without following some sort of periodized training schedule, but most of us could get quite a bit stronger simply by bouldering at the gym a couple of times a week.

 

Additionally, until you get up into the 13+ range, strength isn't really that big of a deal on most sport routes. Usually there's a power-endurance failure mode rather than a strength failure mode. Index could be an exception I guess, but I've rarely done moves on a rope that felt harder than V-3.

 

a standard "periodization" program might fail entirely to get one as strong as they can be.

 

 

and, strength is relative. strength is a HUGE issue for the person trying a route with moves that are hard for them, whether it's 5.9 or 5.14. climbing is a strength sport (along with other things).

[Kimmo]

You think Adam Ondra is stronger now than Ben Moon was in his prime?

 

plus, moon would break ondra's arm in an arm wrestling match.

[Kimmo]

Kimmo,

 

I'm curious what your thoughts on volume/rest as one tries to experment with a more intense schedule are?

 

In particular how you determine how much rest and how much volume you can handle. I like the idea of high volume training but, In practice I find that I am pretty useless the day after a hangboarding work out (usually repeaters/encores for me) or intense bouldering session at the gym...like weak to the point that I can't really feel like I am getting a decent work out so I end up doing the one day on one day off thing.

 

Have you found that it is possible to adapt to multiple days on and do you have any advice for upping the volume in this way? Lots of lower intensity stuff (4x4's, traversing, running)? Vary the drills you do? Or just keep pushing through until your body adapts?

 

 

i adapted to multiple days on by simply doing it. warm-ups i think are key. and perhaps limiting your climbing to an hour or hour and a half per session, although it's a little vague to put a time on it cuz two people can do vastly different things in an hour.

 

but it can depend on other things too, like how long you've been climbing, your current level. i think it simply takes some time for the body to adapt to lots of climbing, and every body might adapt a little differently. being siked to climb is the biggest thing though. if you're hurting and not siked to climb, then you probably shouldn't (until you're experienced enough to push into this territory without crippling yourself). nothing wrong with a one on one off schedule though, especially if you stay siked and injury free, methinks.

 

Edited December 3, 2009 by Kimmo

[rocky_joe]

dude, you asked from me for a sample routine that might get you, as a v4 climber, stronger. you can call this a mesocycle in a periodization program if you like, but i call it preparation to climb harder. btw, there is actually NO power work there, just strength, since most moves are done statically. there is no doubt that, beyond the fun i had climbing statically, this time of climbing helps my climbing to this day, so that's why i would recommend it to someone climbing at your level. are there other things you could do that would improve you? you betcha. almost anything that makes some sense and is done religiously and wisely for a solid chunk of time (at least two months) will improve you. mine was a small small slice from all the options, given because you asked. if it doesn't make sense, or you really don't like it, then don't do it, but if you want to improve, do SOMETHING. (but always work on finger strength, cuz that's the body/rock interface).

 

in the end, of course aspects of "periodization" make sense, in certain situations. i'm just not a fan of adopting one religion and declaring it the end-all. that's just dumb, numb, blind idolatry!

 

and my "program" for myself? power, strength, and stamina. with focus on what i'll be needing for a particular project.

 

So, straying away from the tendon argument, I've noticed something. I went back a pages or three and re-read your example work out plan. the plan you wrote does not appear to endorse the "climb as hard as you can every time you climb" mantra. I think you need to make sure that we all understand exactly what you are trying to say, because here is how I (and i would guess many others) understand your proposed philosophy.

 

An example schedule for clarity (for a v6 climber).

 

Day 1

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 2

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 3

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 4

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 5

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

etc.

 

this is the idea most of your earlier posts conjure for those who read them. Quite different from what you proposed for the V4 Squamish climber. the schedule you proposed, while not standard periodization, is not far from what many climbers do; a lumping together of three of the four non-rest phases: hypertrophy, power endurance, endurance. Your schedule seemed very reasonable, except I would encourage some caution with the fingerboarding routine, doubling the number of hangs to failure after only one week might be a bit much.

 

 

 

[Sol]

I don't know how you guys are really going to learn anything when you use such a caustic tone with each other. It will proabaly be a bit more productive if you guys starting using some modifiers: "what has worked for me...", " that's interesting, but in my experience...." Just a thought...

 

Kimmo, is it really worth your time to respond to every minute detail of every single post? Personally I enjoy your posts about training and your ideas about hard rock climbing, but remember you are posting to what is a mostly alpine based climbing message board that proabaly have a hard time understanding that for some, "hard" rock climbing, doesn't even begin until 5.13.

 

Personally, I very much beleive in periodization for what my goals in climbing are: free ascents of long, technical, traditional alpine rock climbs (Dragons of Eden, Vanishing Point, Thin Red Line, The Tempest, etc.).

 

I agree that if your main focus is single pitch sport, trad, or bouldering, you can improve simply by working your fingers, movements, and forearms, and that that improvement can come somewhat quickly and simply once one knows how to train for it. From there there is a wide range of skills to focus on as one moves across the wide spectrum of climbing styles, say from technical rock climber to mixed/iced alpininst, to full on slogger. Each type of climbing will improve with a different ratio of focused skill sets. Training for technical rock climbing is proabaly the simplest.

 

I've had a couple of good seasons in the last couple of years and have learned alot about training as it relates to my goals in climbing. Over the holiday break I should have time to post more about what I think works for climbers with similar goals.

[tomtom]

I don't know how you guys are really going to learn anything when you use such a caustic tone with each other. It will proabaly be a bit more productive if you guys starting using some modifiers: "what has worked for me...", " that's interesting, but in my experience...." Just a thought...

 

You must be new. This is cc.com.

[hafilax]

dude, you asked from me for a sample routine that might get you, as a v4 climber, stronger. you can call this a mesocycle in a periodization program if you like, but i call it preparation to climb harder. btw, there is actually NO power work there, just strength, since most moves are done statically. there is no doubt that, beyond the fun i had climbing statically, this time of climbing helps my climbing to this day, so that's why i would recommend it to someone climbing at your level. are there other things you could do that would improve you? you betcha. almost anything that makes some sense and is done religiously and wisely for a solid chunk of time (at least two months) will improve you. mine was a small small slice from all the options, given because you asked. if it doesn't make sense, or you really don't like it, then don't do it, but if you want to improve, do SOMETHING. (but always work on finger strength, cuz that's the body/rock interface).

 

in the end, of course aspects of "periodization" make sense, in certain situations. i'm just not a fan of adopting one religion and declaring it the end-all. that's just dumb, numb, blind idolatry!

 

and my "program" for myself? power, strength, and stamina. with focus on what i'll be needing for a particular project.

 

So, straying away from the tendon argument, I've noticed something. I went back a pages or three and re-read your example work out plan. the plan you wrote does not appear to endorse the "climb as hard as you can every time you climb" mantra. I think you need to make sure that we all understand exactly what you are trying to say, because here is how I (and i would guess many others) understand your proposed philosophy.

 

An example schedule for clarity (for a v6 climber).

 

Day 1

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 2

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 3

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 4

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 5

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

etc.

 

this is the idea most of your earlier posts conjure for those who read them. Quite different from what you proposed for the V4 Squamish climber. the schedule you proposed, while not standard periodization, is not far from what many climbers do; a lumping together of three of the four non-rest phases: hypertrophy, power endurance, endurance. Your schedule seemed very reasonable, except I would encourage some caution with the fingerboarding routine, doubling the number of hangs to failure after only one week might be a bit much.

 

 

That is what I was trying to get at by having him write out a schedule. Even Hoerst recommends skipping a lot of the endurance stuff and working maximum strength if you're a boulderer and concentrating on endurance for the alpinist.

 

If you want to train all aspects especially if endurance is a key to success then I believe that periodization will maximize the benefits for that time span especially if timed before a big trip. For bouldering and powerful sport climbs working just maximum strength and power endurance might be a better use of time.

[Sol]

I don't know how you guys are really going to learn anything when you use such a caustic tone with each other. It will proabaly be a bit more productive if you guys starting using some modifiers: "what has worked for me...", " that's interesting, but in my experience...." Just a thought...

 

You must be new. This is cc.com.

 

I'm not and I know. Just trying to make this pile a bit more useful.

[billcoe]

just trying to make this pile a bit more useful.

 

And doing it as well Sol, thank you and everyone else for the contributions and informative tone.

 

It's a good thread with some very good posts.

[Kimmo]

Day 1

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 2

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 3

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 4

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 5

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

etc.

 

 

if you adopt the above scheduling, don't go until exhausted. if you have the v6 wired, and it's at your limit, you'd maybe do it a few times in the morning, with a nice 10 minute break between goes; then a few times in the early afternoon, same breaks, then in the late afternoon, and then in the evening. this way you recover well between efforts, you stay relatively fresh, and can give really good efforts every time. but not many have that type of time.

 

i would also take day 3 and day 7 off.

 

as a matter of fact, this is what i would recommend for hafilax, but on v4's.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Kimmo

[Kimmo]

Kimmo, is it really worth your time to respond to every minute detail of every single post?

 

i have time on my hands.

 

 

plus, there seem to be at least 3 people interested.

[Kimmo]

i'm here to change the world, starting at cascade climbers.

[Kimmo]

Day 1

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 2

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 3

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 4

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

Day 5

Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted.

etc.

 

 

if you adopt the above scheduling, don't go until exhausted. if you have the v6 wired, and it's at your limit, you'd maybe do it a few times in the morning, with a nice 10 minute break between goes; then a few times in the early afternoon, same breaks, then in the late afternoon, and then in the evening. this way you recover well between efforts, you stay relatively fresh, and can give really good efforts every time. but not many have that type of time.

 

i would also take day 3 and day 7 off.

 

as a matter of fact, this is what i would recommend for hafilax, but on v4's.

i would also have maybe 4 boulder problems i would use, and maybe one day would be devoted to a harder project, doing just individual moves and small linkage (again not going to exhaustion; maybe just a half hour session, 15 or 20 moves). after two or three weeks, i would start cycling new boulder problems into the routine, replacing the old ones. after a month or so, up the difficulty a little.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Kimmo

[Kimmo]

I don't know how you guys are really going to learn anything when you use such a caustic tone with each other.

 

it's how i express love. i know it's not the best way to do it, but i hate you, rocky joe.

 

 

[RuMR]

fuggoff kimmo!

[rocky_joe]

why the hate?

 

I didn't mean (most posts) to sound like an asshole. I really just felt that you were wrong. I have kept on responding because by and large you have made ludicrous unsubstantiated claims. I realize as well that I often spoke in far too many absolutes, that was not my intention. I meant to offer a real contradiction to your theory and tried to support it with relevant information.

 

I see some good points in what you tried to say; for a climber whose sole focus is bouldering you make a very relevant argument. However, your argument was never clearly specified and I am still not sure how the propesed schedules you gave us are reflective of your original post; please make these connections for us (me). Apart from not presenting a clearly specified argument I really felt that your argument was not presented to the correct audience; a bunch of mountaineers and alpine climbers aren't really gonna take to a pure power style work out (maybe RuMR liked it, but even that I don't know.)

 

I still don't think that the workout you presented is inline with the thoughts that were evident in your first post, despite the presented workouts being legitimate ways to become a stronger boulderer. But, if you could demonstrate how your proposed method is directly inline with the train hard all the time mantra used by the bulgarians i would love to see where you are coming from.

 

[Kimmo]

fuggoff kimmo!

 

you're such a love-bird. that's what i hate about you!

[rocky_joe]

 

i would also have maybe 4 boulder problems i would use, and maybe one day would be devoted to a harder project, doing just individual moves and small linkage (again not going to exhaustion; maybe just a half hour session, 15 or 20 moves). after two or three weeks, i would start cycling new boulder problems into the routine, replacing the old ones. after a month or so, up the difficulty a little.

 

I think this could easily be labeled as periodization. Over the course of one month climbing nothing but v4 boulder problems one will definitely get stronger quick and as I have experienced it only takes about 2 weeks for pure power to stagnate (without increase in difficulty. The final 2 weeks of the month (assuming they continued to climb v4 and not harder) would then see the climber climbing more moves at the v4 difficulty than at the beginning of the month. This could see the climber doing so many more moves that in fact their workouts would become power-endurance. I think this method of training could be very useful for many climbers, however I don't see how it is in the same school as the bulgarian lifters.

[rocky_joe]

you hate RuMR too?

 

RuMR we have something in common! Let's form a club!

[Kimmo]

why the hate?

 

But, if you could demonstrate how your proposed method is directly inline with the train hard all the time mantra used by the bulgarians i would love to see where you are coming from.

 

the hate has been explained.

 

and look on the previous page: an excellent approach more in line with my previous bulgarian style of training. 5 days a week, only high quality moves relevant to one's goals.

[rocky_joe]

hate has not been explained.

 

and i suppose i see how your training method could be related and I also see that it could very well be effective for a smart disciplined boulderer who listens to their body-- in my experience these climbers are few and far between, so a training method as intense as your often results in tendon injuries.

 

[Kimmo]

hate has not been explained.

 

and i suppose i see how your training method could be related and I also see that it could very well be effective for a smart disciplined boulderer who listens to their body-- in my experience these climbers are few and far between, so a training method as intense as your often results in tendon injuries.

 

hate is the new love.

 

 

i don't know how often it would result in injuries, cuz i'm not sure this specific approach has been adopted by many, if any, boulderers. is the injury potential high? it seems like it might be, so yeah you'd have to pay hella attention to body.

[crackers]

That said most strength coaches agree a large part of eastern bloc success in the 70s and 80s wasnt primarily due to their programming approach but instead their understanding of successful biochemistry.

 

I couldn't agree more. The bulgarian teams from the '80s/'90s -- and I actually know one of them from my life overseas -- couldn't pass a modern piss test to save their lives.

[RuMR]

you hate RuMR too?

 

RuMR we have something in common! Let's form a club!

nah...i get along with Kimmo really well...known him since he was a wee pup from 2 decades ago...

 

FWIW, kimmo is climbing sick these days...whatever he's doing its paying off...i'd listen to him...my $0.02...

 

Don't know John's actual numbers so i can't comment on his training effectiveness and until he actually puts out a "I was climbing at X, after doing Y I'm climbing at this Z level" i consider everything he does as circumspect

 

Having said that, i have a pretty good relative idea of kimmo's capabilities before he turned into a training nazi and his capabilities now...

[RuMR]

oh...almost forgot, kiss my ass, kimmo you hater!