The Fallacy of Periodization?

[Kimmo]

 

Fully agree on strength to weight ratio but I disagree with your proposed programming to achieve it.

 

but...above you said climbing wasn't a strength sport....you are contradicting yourself. you also haven't answered the question regarding resting in the "eastern bloc" approach to lifting, and the seeming contradiction the bulgarians present to this.

 

and what is the "programming" i propose to achieve hard climbing?

 

James Litz can do a pullup with 165# strapped to him or a one arm pull up on a ring with a 25# KB in the other hand but for a period of time couldnt extend a water bottle above his head locked out because all he did was pull pull pull. Not having unloading/foundational periods in your programming will only set you up for a short career.

 

i would imagine him being unable to lift a water bottle over his head had less to do with pull pull pull than with actual injury. i only do pull pull pull, can do a one arm, etc etc and oh, i'm 43. damn short "career", eh?

 

you seem to be an expert on theory, but how much of this have you personally experienced through hard climbing?

[JosephH]

Id have to see his training journal to tell you exactly why... either he was strict on his diet or the cardio work he was doing was canceling out the weight lifting.

 

Link perhaps?

I don't know Mark all that well, but I suspect he is pretty methodical, consistent, and 'strict' about his training. Doubt he kept a journal, however.

 

Supertopo NIAD thread

[Kimmo]

i would add that all my commentary is geared towards bouldering and sport climbing, btw, not alpine or mixed or somesuch.

 

 

side-note: john, you seem to present things as hard and fast rules, ie. you do this and this will definitely happen, regarding injury, bulking up, blah blah blah. the real world is a little more flexible than that.

 

it seems you might have been one of the critics of abadjiev because he didn't conform to accepted theory (as his lifters took gold after gold).

 

 

[rocky_joe]

So I stopped reading after the first 3/4 page, but am hoping I can contribute something new to the conversation. Kimmo, you're wrong for all the reasons listed above: climbing works more systems, climbing works more muscles, climbing is higher stress, but there is one reason (that I think is the most important) that hasn't been pointed out.

 

Climbing stresses tendons. Yes, weight lifting stresses tendons, but does not even come close to matching the stress placed on them by climbing, especially in the fingers. Tendons are fragile. Tendons are non-vascular. Tendons take up to 4 years (see Rock Prodigy) to begin to strengthen (respond to the stress of climbing.) After 4 years, tendons continue to strengthen, but the pace in which they gain strength is still much slower than muscle.

 

For this reason we need to use at least some form of periodization in our training routines. Periodization focuses on strengthening different systems. Endurance training improves the repetitive strength of your muscles. Power Endurance attempts to increase one's lactate threshold. Hypertrophy strengthens the all important tendons by isolating muscle training immediately proximal to them. Finally rest (the most difficult to observe) allows all the systems to recover fully, thus becoming stronger.

 

If climbers were to observe the same idea your weightlifting example eludes to, we would surely all be aid climbers within two months. That is a world I don't want to live in.

[Kimmo]

The consistent theme amongst them all is if you want to become a better climber, you need to climb A LOT - and focus less on "training". If you aren't climbing hard 2-3 times a week, than the "training" (whether it amounts to weight lifting, crossfit, etc.) is not necessarily worthless, but is less effective at making you a stronger climber than if you just climbed a lot. Optimally, you'd climb hard 2-3 times a week and add you "training" on top of that.

 

i think again, that while the above might be the preferred approach for the majority of climbers, it isn't a hard and fast rule. there is no doubt that doing specific training preparation for a specific route can be the best way to spend one's time vs generic "climbing".

 

hard and fast rules piss me off! get creative; it's the only way anything evolves.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Kimmo

[Kimmo]

So I stopped reading after the first 3/4 page, but am hoping I can contribute something new to the conversation. Kimmo, you're wrong for all the reasons listed above: climbing works more systems, climbing works more muscles, climbing is higher stress, but there is one reason (that I think is the most important) that hasn't been pointed out.

 

Climbing stresses tendons. Yes, weight lifting stresses tendons, but does not even come close to matching the stress placed on them by climbing, especially in the fingers. Tendons are fragile. Tendons are non-vascular. Tendons take up to 4 years (see Rock Prodigy) to begin to strengthen (respond to the stress of climbing.) After 4 years, tendons continue to strengthen, but the pace in which they gain strength is still much slower than muscle.

 

For this reason we need to use at least some form of periodization in our training routines. Periodization focuses on strengthening different systems. Endurance training improves the repetitive strength of your muscles. Power Endurance attempts to increase one's lactate threshold. Hypertrophy strengthens the all important tendons by isolating muscle training immediately proximal to them. Finally rest (the most difficult to observe) allows all the systems to recover fully, thus becoming stronger.

 

If climbers were to observe the same idea your weightlifting example eludes to, we would surely all be aid climbers within two months. That is a world I don't want to live in.

 

oh my goodness. i see the problem here. you guys think i'm suggesting we all start powerlifting?

 

READING COMPREHENSION, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jon]

Do we need a poggo stick or a parachute for your leaps in logic here?

[RuMR]

In weightlifting the strongest lifter always wins because they can lift the most weight in their respective weight class.

 

In climbing the strongest climber isnt the best climber. I.e. much much more than strength matters to be a great climber.

 

So: adopting the programming of a strength based sport for a non strength sport will not deliver the same results. Or... what works for apples wont work for slugs

 

climbing isn't rocket science. climbing is simply a technical form of weight-lifting. certainly technique is important, but in the end, it's about strength to weight ratio, with a large part of that equation being finger strength to weight ratio.

 

i'm not meaning to disrespect your opinion, but your above statement calling climbing a "non strength" sport is laughable at best....

and anyone who says there is no technique to lifting is waaay whacked as well...

[Kimmo]

For this reason we need to use at least some form of periodization in our training routines. Periodization focuses on strengthening different systems. Endurance training improves the repetitive strength of your muscles. Power Endurance attempts to increase one's lactate threshold. Hypertrophy strengthens the all important tendons by isolating muscle training immediately proximal to them. Finally rest (the most difficult to observe) allows all the systems to recover fully, thus becoming stronger.

 

If climbers were to observe the same idea your weightlifting example eludes to, we would surely all be aid climbers within two months. That is a world I don't want to live in.

 

dude, it sounds like you've figured out! congratulations! but seriously, beyond the clionical theory tone, most of what you say makes sense. but again, it's not the end-all you seem to indicate.

[Kimmo]

Do we need a poggo stick or a parachute for your leaps in logic here?

 

explain please.

[Kimmo]

Tendons are fragile.

 

tendons are amazingly strong. look at what they do on a daily basis.

 

Tendons take up to 4 years (see Rock Prodigy) to begin to strengthen (respond to the stress of climbing.)

 

what a load of crap. tendons take 4 years to BEGIN to strengthen? insane.

 

[layton]

Interesting thread. I think the main point is to train for what you are doing. Elite athlete have to train completely different from regular folks. Building a strong baseline of fitness is essential to achieve a superior amount of strength in any area. Technique is 90%, but I know my technique gets way better if I'm not pumped, winded, tired, or hurt.

 

Climbing more is the best way to train, but adding weight training, cardio, and fingerboard/systems training will accelerate your progress.

 

I don't put a lot of faith in exercise science research. The studies are usually extremely flawed from a scientific standpoint. They do offer interesting guidelines, but aren't the final word from any standpoint.

[layton]

I also strongly believe that just doing ANYTHING with some sort of plan and goal in mind will achieve the vast majority of results people want.

[Kimmo]

Technique is 90%, but I know my technique gets way better if I'm not pumped, winded, tired, or hurt.

 

again, a generalization. technique is NOT 90%. the route will not give a goshdang about your "technique" if you do not have the strength to pull a move. In this situation, technique is a big fat 0%.

 

Climbing more is the best way to train, but adding weight training, cardio, and fingerboard/systems training will accelerate your progress.

 

again, a generalization. climbing more is not always the best way to train; the best way to train might be to train one specific move, or monos for instance, if the route one is trying has a section that gives one problems ("best" is entirely subjective, and applicable only to one's goals; even then it's sometimes hard to figure out what "best" is).

 

I don't put a lot of faith in exercise science research. The studies are usually extremely flawed from a scientific standpoint. They do offer interesting guidelines, but aren't the final word from any standpoint.

 

agreed.

[hafilax]

Kimmo, why don't you propose a training program. Something more than do a bunch of campusing and a bunch of finger board stuff.

[Kimmo]

Kimmo, why don't you propose a training program. Something more than do a bunch of campusing and a bunch of finger board stuff.

 

for who?

[jon]

O.M.F.G.

[hafilax]

Kimmo, why don't you propose a training program. Something more than do a bunch of campusing and a bunch of finger board stuff.

 

for who?

Homer.

[Kimmo]

O.M.F.G.

 

 

what seems to be the problem here, jon?

[RuMR]

i resmeble Homer...

[Kimmo]

Kimmo, why don't you propose a training program. Something more than do a bunch of campusing and a bunch of finger board stuff.

 

for who?

Homer.

 

stop eating so many donuts, and get new writers for the show. then we'll talk.

[hafilax]

Not that Homer. A different one.

Edited December 1, 2009 by hafilax

[G-spotter]

That said most strength coaches agree a large part of eastern bloc success in the 70s and 80s wasnt primarily due to their programming approach but instead their understanding of recovery/rest days.

 

I thought it was because of their use of incredible amounts of performance enhancing drugs.

 

 

If you consider transsexuality to be enhanced performance that is.

[Kimmo]

Not that Homer. A different one.

 

sorry my bad. only homer i know.

 

whether or not your post was serious, my response was. trying to outline some form of generic "improvement" program without knowing the goals of the individual is kinda tuff.

[Pete_H]

That said most strength coaches agree a large part of eastern bloc success in the 70s and 80s wasnt primarily due to their programming approach but instead their understanding of recovery/rest days.

 

I thought it was because of their use of incredible amounts of performance enhancing drugs.

 

 

If you consider transsexuality to be enhanced performance that is.

 

We're not talking about the Kenyans.