Sport vs Trad

[pope]

So, are we to infer you have never worked a route on toprope until you felt strong enough to lead it? Everything was just onsight for you?

 

Far as I can remember. I've certainly top-roped things, but nothing I ever imagined myself being able to lead in the future. That spoils the fun. I always trusted that either I could adequately protect the route or recognize that it was dangerous and then just back off. I've done plenty of that. BTW I hate falling....don't really trust the equipment enough.

[pope]

Pope, you didn't answer the question on the Gorge trail...would you not find that fun to ride?

 

Bill, I haven't read your post yet, but the answer is probably yes....I love riding trails as long as land managers permit it. Most trails (at lower elevation) on this side of the hill grow over in a couple of years when neglected, so I don't see the harm.

 

Now let's suppose that a group of mountain bikers have different ideas about a given trail. By that I mean, one group wants the trail to include mandatory 6-foot drops and high-ball skinnies, while another group wants to cut down some trees to straighten the trail, while still another group wants to dump a bunch of crushed rock in the wet areas, and no group wishes to see the modifications that one of the other group desires. What's the solution? LEAVE IT AS NATURAL AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE IT'S A SHARED TRAIL. Analogy complete.

[StevenSeagal]

 

So, are we to infer you have never worked a route on toprope until you felt strong enough to lead it? Everything was just onsight for you? Basically, it is unethical to attempt something unless you can onsight it, and if you toprope it first, you should never lead it because

you've already inspected it?

 

I'll withhold sarcastic remarks until you clarify you strategy. For the above, either trad or bolts apply.

 

This use to be my belief and practice. If I went up to try it and fell, even if it later became a hard 5.11-5.12, it didn't matter and I walked away. (this was generally always cracks as I don't care for face climbing on bolts generally, it has to be totally unique or special) I don't mind toproping anything though, but they use to be different things for me. I am no longer that way and often tr then lead now, it's all good, just be honest with our policies and what does that matter anyway?

 

Pope, you didn't answer the question on the Gorge trail...would you not find that fun to ride?

 

which is why there's a distinction between "onsight" and "redpoint"- with the latter you did it clean but with prior knowledge. as long as people are honest about how they did it, I don't see how it matters. If someone chooses to walk away from a climb if they fall and never go back, that's their business, and IMHO, their loss. But in the end such rules are just different ways of making a game out of it. It's contrived according to one's aesthetics and biases and if you turn it into a religion that you feel the need to slag on others to reinforce, then that's just dumb.

 

Pope sounds like he doesn't think it "counts" if you lead it cleanly after having tr'd it or otherwise failed to lead it previously- maybe I'm wrong. But the only concession I'll make it that such an ascent is not as impressive and pure as an onsight ascent. But you only get 1 chance to onsight- I think to walk away is just limiting the experience and there is great fulfillment in learning a route after much toil. And I do think it can allow one's onsight grade to increase concurrently...

[pope]

It's been a while, but I just remembered a cool route in the Icicle.

 

Right next to Carnival crack is a really good one called Sideshow Bob (Eric Mohler, Tom Perkow, Dave Bale 1999). It has some cool crack climbing leading to face with some small cracks. Right near the top (Crux?) of the route is a bolt. I was happy to see. The bolt.

 

The bolt was interesting though. I thought it was kind of close to a crack where you could place pro. I hear the bolt was placed on rap by one of the FA crew. Interesting

 

Actually most of the credit goes to Scotty Hopkins. He spied it and he and I cleaned it. Can't remember who got the first lead. The bolt is probably appropriate and was initially drilled from a good stance. When the Fixe bolt (supposedly 3/8) didn't fit the hole, we borrowed a power drill (on the advice of Jim Phillips) and enlarged the hole to 1/2", which was done on rap (by me or Dave Bale). We thought Jim's advice was appropriate since the hole was already drilled. Another solution would have been to return with a bolt that was actually 3/8 instead of the weird Fixe bolt which must have been a metric dimension.

[Ponderosa]

Listen, Jefe, believe it or not, before sport climbing and grid bolting, climbers managed to have a dandy time and left a fraction of the trace/mess that is common at just about every cliff today.

 

You omit the era/practice of nailing the hell out of cracks with the resultant scarring - leaving a substantial "trace" in the scarred lines. That practice altered routes, visual appearance, and the rock itself, comparatively, as much as anything (including bolted lines) that came after the '70's decade revelation/revolution of "clean climbing".

 

Thanks for the history lesson. In other news, the ocean is wet and little bears play in the woods.

 

Cool.

 

Thanks for verifying your lack of a broad and accurate perspective represented in your assertion of clean, unadulterated climbing practices "before sport climbing and grid bolting".

 

It confirms, as others contend, that yours is a position lacking sufficient comprehensive contemplation.

 

...and/or the battle you and Raindawg wage is a disingenuous farce without integrity deeming "Spray" the only appropriate arena.

[pope]

 

So, are we to infer you have never worked a route on toprope until you felt strong enough to lead it? Everything was just onsight for you? Basically, it is unethical to attempt something unless you can onsight it, and if you toprope it first, you should never lead it because

you've already inspected it?

 

I'll withhold sarcastic remarks until you clarify you strategy. For the above, either trad or bolts apply.

 

This use to be my belief and practice. If I went up to try it and fell, even if it later became a hard 5.11-5.12, it didn't matter and I walked away. (this was generally always cracks as I don't care for face climbing on bolts generally, it has to be totally unique or special) I don't mind toproping anything though, but they use to be different things for me. I am no longer that way and often tr then lead now, it's all good, just be honest with our policies and what does that matter anyway?

 

Pope, you didn't answer the question on the Gorge trail...would you not find that fun to ride?

 

which is why there's a distinction between "onsight" and "redpoint"- with the latter you did it clean but with prior knowledge. as long as people are honest about how they did it, I don't see how it matters. If someone chooses to walk away from a climb if they fall and never go back, that's their business, and IMHO, their loss. But in the end such rules are just different ways of making a game out of it. It's contrived according to one's aesthetics and biases and if you turn it into a religion that you feel the need to slag on others to reinforce, then that's just dumb.

 

Pope sounds like he doesn't think it "counts" if you lead it cleanly after having tr'd it or otherwise failed to lead it previously- maybe I'm wrong. But the only concession I'll make it that such an ascent is not as impressive and pure as an onsight ascent. But you only get 1 chance to onsight- I think to walk away is just limiting the experience and there is great fulfillment in learning a route after much toil. And I do think it can allow one's onsight grade to increase concurrently...

 

Couple comments. I always tried to lead something before top-roping it because I thought it was really exciting and you only get one chance. Everything is new, nothing is certain, and your brain is working just as hard as your body, trying to read the route, find the gear, find the rests. I just love that shite. But I completely understand that other folks have different ideas about what's fun and safe and impressive.....or whatever motivates you. No problem. I don't think I've ever criticized somebody for top-roping a climb. My question is, for those who are developing routes, why would you then leave a trail of trashy bolts all over the rock? Seems like you've squeezed most of the fun out of it, so why not call it a day and leave it as a top-rope climb?

 

Also back in the '80s sport climbers would distinguish between several styles of leading a climb, based on the amount of previewing and also how the protection was rigged. There was the red point, the pink point, and the brown point. I'm sure some old fart like Bill or OW will log on later and educate us about the subtle distinctions between these designations.

[StevenSeagal]

So, are we to infer you have never worked a route on toprope until you felt strong enough to lead it? Everything was just onsight for you?

 

Far as I can remember. I've certainly top-roped things, but nothing I ever imagined myself being able to lead in the future. That spoils the fun. I always trusted that either I could adequately protect the route or recognize that it was dangerous and then just back off. I've done plenty of that. BTW I hate falling....don't really trust the equipment enough.

 

I respect that approach, pope. See my above post which I was writing when you posted this for why I think this just one way to have fun playing this game we all love.

Bolting is another matter, I'm talking strictly about climbing style here

 

[Kimmo]

Kimmo, looks like you've gotta new groupie! Betcha getta BJ outa your new recruit.

 

didn't i hear something about high-school in an earlier post of yours?

 

btw, a good variation you might try: match the pocket on The Razor, then to the top. good times!

[richard_noggin]

So what have you onsighted lately, Don’t sit on your old crotchety laurels, get out push the limits, get hard and your body

ripped, climb with the hotties, have fun, stop being an old crothety I useta climb hard internet geek!!!!

Dick Head

 

[pope]

Kimmo, looks like you've gotta new groupie! Betcha getta BJ outa your new recruit.

 

didn't i hear something about high-school in an earlier post of yours?

 

btw, a good variation you might try: match the pocket on The Razor, then to the top. good times!

 

No way. You can't match the pocket and there's no way you're gonna summit from there. Show me some video. I'll buy you your favorite beer if you can do that.

[pope]

Hey Little Richard, you seem to think you're extra clever by posting my real name all over these boards. Let's find out who you are. What are you hiding?

[Kimmo]

Couple comments. I always tried to lead something before top-roping it because I thought it was really exciting and you only get one chance. Everything is new, nothing is certain, and your brain is working just as hard as your body, trying to read the route, find the gear, find the rests. I just love that shite.

 

definitely fun stuff.

 

My question is, for those who are developing routes, why would you then leave a trail of trashy bolts all over the rock? Seems like you've squeezed most of the fun out of it, so why not call it a day and leave it as a top-rope climb?

 

this isn't a bad question, and here's my answer:

 

1). some climbs simply cannot be top-roped. there's plenty of steep stuff even here in WA that would be silly and dangerous for everyone involved if top-roped.

 

2). on many routes, setting up a top-rope would involve at the very least a via ferrata simply to access the top of the climbs: a VIA FERRATA! WHERE WOULD THAT LEAD US?

 

3.) for the sane person, having a few bolts here and there simply is not a big deal. the visual impact is minimal, with most non-climbing people being ENTIRELY unaffected. and the "ethical" impact is also quite minimal, with only a handful of malcontents decrying the "death" of their beloved "ideals".

 

i have more to say, i always do, but i have to run to the store now, so bye bye.

[Kimmo]

 

No way. You can't match the pocket and there's no way you're gonna summit from there. Show me some video. I'll buy you your favorite beer if you can do that.

 

one keg of konings hoeven quadruppel, please!

[chirp]

My question is, for those who are developing routes, why would you then leave a trail of trashy bolts all over the rock? Seems like you've squeezed most of the fun out of it, so why not call it a day and leave it as a top-rope climb?

 

Because its ALL about getting recognition and your name in a guidebook.

Eternal fame for creating a popular and classic line...or eternal flame for bolting it in the first place or bolting it poorly.

 

But in the end its all about ego. I love ego, especially with whip cream and blueberry syrup!

[el jefe]

well certainly not sharing any trip reports is no measure of climbing prowess or knowledge. but it does make you wonder why that person is here in the first place. i suppose it is to take a turd on the contributions of others.

 

good job with that, you're awesome.

 

rudy, looks like you and me need to get together and go climb das toof and post the 914th trip report on cc.com about our adventure on what is clearly washington's most sought-after summit. then maybe we'll get some cred with jake porker et al.

[richard_noggin]

Edited August 18, 2009 by richard_noggin

[olyclimber]

well certainly not sharing any trip reports is no measure of climbing prowess or knowledge. but it does make you wonder why that person is here in the first place. i suppose it is to take a turd on the contributions of others.

 

good job with that, you're awesome.

 

rudy, looks like you and me need to get together and go climb das toof and post the 914th trip report on cc.com about our adventure on what is clearly washington's most sought-after summit. then maybe we'll get some cred with jake porker et al.

 

i don't give a shit what you do. but why don't you shut the fuck up about people who do write trip reports mmmkay?

[Kimmo]

it was the "porker" bit, wasn't it?

[G-spotter]

everone here knows who I am but maybe not my friends the route setters and old hard men of the north west check your pm you got it wanker

 

if you threw in some "cock gargling fetus felcher" in there you might sound like polish bob

[olyclimber]

Has anyone been up to the Tooth lately? I was wondering what the conditions are like up there.

[G-spotter]

Sunny with 95% chance of gapers

[StevenSeagal]

Couple comments. I always tried to lead something before top-roping it because I thought it was really exciting and you only get one chance. Everything is new, nothing is certain, and your brain is working just as hard as your body, trying to read the route, find the gear, find the rests. I just love that shite. But I completely understand that other folks have different ideas about what's fun and safe and impressive.....or whatever motivates you. No problem. I don't think I've ever criticized somebody for top-roping a climb.

 

Cool, and thanks. I get what you mean and I respect that ethic. I also value the things you mention, but I've also never been a very successful onsight climber; therefore in some perverse sort of way failure is equally motivating to me. Redpoint is not as proud but barring the onsight, it's the next best thing.

[olyclimber]

What about Freedom Freeing a route? Is that cool?

[StevenSeagal]

What about Freedom Freeing a route? Is that cool?

 

That's not cool at all. Freedom is aid. And that ain't free.

[el jefe]

well certainly not sharing any trip reports is no measure of climbing prowess or knowledge. but it does make you wonder why that person is here in the first place. i suppose it is to take a turd on the contributions of others.

 

good job with that, you're awesome.

 

rudy, looks like you and me need to get together and go climb das toof and post the 914th trip report on cc.com about our adventure on what is clearly washington's most sought-after summit. then maybe we'll get some cred with jake porker et al.

 

i don't give a shit what you do. but why don't you shut the fuck up about people who do write trip reports mmmkay?

 

i got no problem with people who write trip reports and for the most part i enjoy them and find them useful sources of information. you, however, mr shitforbrains moderator, are the one who made an issue of people who don't write trip reports, hence my sarcastic response. if you are such a pussy that you can't take a little shit then maybe you shouldn't be dishing it out in the first place.