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      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   11/10/22

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RuMR

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Hey Tradhead,

 

The full results (including pics, force charts, cross sections, etc) will be posted in a couple days for everyone to do whatever they like with... This was just a quick summary for the people who were chomping at the bit for an executive summary of the testing.

 

Reading over your post again I follow now.... Capping the percentages at 100% we get an average of 91.9% rating for the new ones, 81.3% for the old ones and 87.6% overall.

 

-a.

Edited by Aric Datesman

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In case anyone was waiting on the Alien results, they're finally posted. Sorry for the delay, and an easier to read PDF version should be available tonight or tomorrow (its ~70 pages long, so kinda hard to read in a forum thread format). Oh, and don't try to read it on your iPhone... there's lots of pics and its very bandwidth intensive.

 

Link

Edited by Aric Datesman

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really interesting data. Looks like their next recall will be associated with the axle...or maybe they will just downgrade the rating to something more reasonable. Amazing that the head just shattered on the smaller tests.

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yeah...maybe if they halve their stated capacity, then they *might* just test out... :rolleyes:

 

Or, maybe they should just "cease and desist" before someone gets their ass killed...

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I haven't yet sent CCH the full writeup with analysis and pics (will go out tonight along with the report the UIAA asked for), but they got all of the data 2 or 3 weeks ago and their only response was "thanks".

 

-a.

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Aric,

 

Thanks again for the testing. The stuff on the axle misalignment is especially confusing to me as I can't imaginge a scenario where one would produce machined parts on a mass basis and be unable to control this feature really consistently unless the process for cutting the outside profile of the cam was similarly inaccurate.

 

A cheap drill jig and drill press should be within +/- a few thousandths in aluminum on lobes with consistent outside profiles...

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I'm 95% sure that they're making the lobes on a lathe with live tooling on the turret (former CCH employee confirmed this suspicion), which allows them to drill the holes, cut the slot and cut the lobe off the extrusion in a single operation and get a finished lobe without any manual intervention. What this means is that there is no jig or drill press, so unless you're doing proper first/last plus random inspection it's easy to miss bad runs going through production. I'm not sure whether its a programming or fixturing problem at the moment as I don't have a large enough sample to tell if its just the axle hole that moves or both the axle and trigger wire holes, but its definitely happening somewhere in the process.

 

EDIT- BTW, the CCH website states that they're using extrusions for the lobes, so they're not cutting the profile.

Edited by Aric Datesman

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Quick followup... The UIAA report went out this morning and I sent a copy of it to CCH. The response from CCH was much longer this time: "thank you very much". I guess time will tell if they actually read or do anything about it.

 

On a side note I took a quick look at the Consumer Product Safety Commission's website this morning and it turns out they have a quick and easy online form for reporting things, so went ahead and passed them the info as well. Maybe that will light bit of a fire under CCH's tuckus and get them to clean up their act...

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Another quick followup... I don't suppose anyone here happens to be the person who had any of the Alien failures I've read about over the years? If so, I'd be very interested in getting your contact info (or even just an account of the failure and some photos) as I have a meeting with an investigator from the Consumer Product Safety Commission later this week. She seems quite interested in my test results but I think a first hand account or two of failures in the field would be even better.

 

Thanks!

 

-aric.

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Aliens work and well…I am not light person and they saved my fat ass many times on Aid and Trad…gear is gear and it is NOT fail proof…with that in mind just have the right judgment and inspect your gear regularly…if u need farther insurance then… DON’T CLIMB!!!... it is the safest way of not getting hurt in climbing….we got spoiled and we looking for someone else to carry the liability for our stupidity…at the end, all it matter is what one prefers and feel comfortable with, and if one think that alien are unsafe…don’t use them…anyway they are hard to come by…more for me

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Sigh. I'd point out everything he either missed in my testing, but at this point I can't be bothered to argue this anymore with people who clearly don't understand the ramifications of what was found in my testing.

 

Anyway, meeting went off without a hitch and it's now pretty much out of my hands. The investigator has copies of all my documentation (sent her home with a stack of papers ~1.5" thick) and will be sending her report to their Compliance Officer. That person then makes a determination whether to pursue the investigation or not, at which point CCH may or may not be contacted and an on-site inspection performed.

 

Oh, and I sent the UIAA a copy of the documentation a couple weeks ago as well and they may or may not be looking into this as well. I know that they're rather unhappy with CCH at the moment due to improper use of the UIAA label (they're cert ran out back in December), so it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking into it as well.

 

-a.

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Thanks Aric, this is a better solution than a fatality followed by a legal team getting all the stock and inventory after a lengthy trial.

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Aliens work and well…I am not light person and they saved my fat ass many times on Aid and Trad…gear is gear and it is NOT fail proof…with that in mind just have the right judgment and inspect your gear regularly…if u need farther insurance then… DON’T CLIMB!!!... it is the safest way of not getting hurt in climbing….we got spoiled and we looking for someone else to carry the liability for our stupidity…at the end, all it matter is what one prefers and feel comfortable with, and if one think that alien are unsafe…don’t use them…anyway they are hard to come by…more for me

 

You clearly haven't read any of the discussions.

 

You can have whatever uninformed opinion you want about the gear, but your logic is faulty and nobody else should listen to you.

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Aric - great work on this. Too bad ice-ice doesn't bother to read and can't (or won't due to willful ignorance) understand how a strength rating for a life safety critical piece of hardware is developed.

 

The short version for strength rating in aerospace: the rating of a raw material MUST be set such that 99% of all material meets or exceeds said rating - period. Using this standard, Aric has clearly shown that the strength ratings on the noted products are invalid.

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Oh, forgot to mention it here... I don't suppose anyone here knows the guy from the Souder's Crack incident? Or anyone else injured by a non-recall Alien?

 

I included in my documentation Bob Reuf's list on RC of post-recall failures (along with whatever details were available), but the investigator said that they would be especially interested in talking to anyone who has actually personally been hurt by one of the failures. The Souder's Crack guy is "Pinsandbones" on RC, but he hasn't logged on in a couple months and I don't know how to find him otherwise. I'm sure there have been other less-serious injuries that haven't been reported, so figure I'd ask...

 

Oh, and since it was brought up on RC the reason I'm trying to track these down is that I want this over with ASAP (so I can get my life back) and figure it would be easier for me to find than a random person from the CSPC who has never been on any of the climbing boards.

 

-a.

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money says CCH know's the guy's name and contact info...good luck with that though...

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Aliens work and well…I am not light person and they saved my fat ass many times on Aid and Trad…gear is gear and it is NOT fail proof…with that in mind just have the right judgment and inspect your gear regularly…if u need farther insurance then… DON’T CLIMB!!!... it is the safest way of not getting hurt in climbing….we got spoiled and we looking for someone else to carry the liability for our stupidity…at the end, all it matter is what one prefers and feel comfortable with, and if one think that alien are unsafe…don’t use them…anyway they are hard to come by…more for me

 

In end, all it matter you be MORON. Your Aunt Mom and Uncle Dad should never have bumped uglies.

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In end, all it matter you be MORON. Your Aunt Mom and Uncle Dad should never have bumped uglies.

No reason to act like an angry 2nd grader throwing a tantrum.

_______________________________________________________________

 

Aric, I'd ask here: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=8242

 

Says "Cliff Heindel is the guy who decked." and he posts on that board. Not sure if it's the right guy, but a general post there might start the ball rolling.

 

Good luck.

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money says CCH know's the guy's name and contact info...good luck with that though...

 

:lmao:

 

Ha! They stopped responding to my emails weeks ago...

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For all,

Any safety gear no matter what is the testing agency is not fail proof…the way I see it one will pay for the connivance of having the gear and not manufacturing it. one can always climb Elbsandsteingebirge style where making the “gear” and” testing” it is up to the individual. It is not that I give the manufactures a tickets for lower their QC all I am saying is that one cannot blindly trust anything one did not made, inspected and tested throughout its manufacturing process and life. The method of redundancy while placing gear is there for a reason the method of old school of the leader should never fall is there b/c of hard lessons learned…even with individual testing (of every piece) methods for half strength it still will not be fail proof… I wonder how many pieces were subjected to 2 or 3 half load testing before metal fatigue or how many half loads testing on the same specimen will accrue before failure and where the average failure point/s is/are …

As far as the manufacture liability concern…same oll story we have laws and regulation to obey by so whatever is their claims and advertisement they will held liable against it with help of a good lawyer…still till the next red flag will raise and it will… one should use judgment and caution when trusting their life or anything to that effect.

 

Choada_Boy...here is another one ...go for it

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