What type of 'biners for QD's?

[BirdDog]

I'm going to be adding to my rack. For 5.7 - 5.10b alpine/trad/sport routes what type of biners on the rope end of quick draws - bent gate or wire gate? What about the top biner for clipping wired nuts/cams etc.. straight gate or wire. I know wire gates are supposedly less likely to vibrate open, but bent gates seem easier to clip. I plan on using 18cm. dogbones, should cover both trad and sport? For alpine I'll mostly use 60cm. runners, doubled/extendable.

 

Opinions?

[Crillz]

Light is right! Wiregates!

 

If your hands are giganto, you may want to play with a couple in the store before you drop a benjamin on new biners.

[Pete_H]

I just use whatever biners are on the draws I booty off of preclipped sport routes.

[eldiente]

If your high rolling get two sets of draws, one for sport and one for trad/alpine. The super light skinny slings and biners tend to get destroyed from lots of cragging use. Save this for your alpine days.

 

If money is an issue save a few bucks on your crag draws by using cheap biners on the bolt end and nicer/easier to clip biners for the rope. Don't worry about the weight for crag draws, if your draw rack is really weighting you down consider pre-hanging the draws before your red point so weight is non-issue.

 

For your alpine/trad draws go wires on everything if you have a choice. Aside from the weight savings, it is really nice just to glance at a biner and know which side your going to clip through.

 

 

 

[OrygunJim]

dmm shield wiregates for alpine draws. spendy, but bitchin. I have a dozen alpine draws and a dozen sport draws. Mix and match depending on what the specific route warrants.

[genepires]

with some use, the wiregates will seem as easy to clip as a bent gate.

 

If you are strapped for cash, a set of hotwires are fairly cheap and cover a wide range of uses. (cragging, ice and alpine)

 

Having a set of thick durable draws for cragging and a set of skinny mammut slings for alpine is a very good idea. You will probably want some longer slings (reg shoulder length) for the trad stuff too.

[montypiton]

I may get laughed off the site for this, but I avoid bentgates entirely. (the occasional booty-bentgate, I immediately retire to "utility" non-climbing use) Yes, they're easy to clip, but they're also noticeably more likely to "back-clip". A buddy of mine from Wenatchee, climbing at Red Rocks a few years back, took what ought to have been an inconsequential lead fall and ended up twenty feet below his belayer after FOUR QD's in a row failed/back-clip. Since then, I and most of my regular partners are now setting up about half of our draws with lightweight LOCKING carabiners on the rope end. My typical setup is either two wiregates, or a wiregat-and-locker. This works for us old farts who don't focus on "sport" routes but are happy on trad and alpine routes to about 5.11. I'm more than willing to allow that a locker on the rope-end of a draw may be too "fiddly" for hard sport routes, but the minimal difference in clipability between a wiregate and a bentgate would not justify, for me, the increased risk of using only bentgates on leads at the limit of my abilities...

 

to sum up - at least consider setting up a few draws with lockers on the rope-end, as extra insurance in squirrely situations...

[eldiente]

A buddy of mine from Wenatchee, climbing at Red Rocks a few years back, took what ought to have been an inconsequential lead fall and ended up twenty feet below his belayer after FOUR QD's in a row failed/back-clip. Since then, I and most of my regular partners are now setting up about half of our draws with lightweight LOCKING carabiners on the rope end.

 

I'd like to know more about this story. This friend, did he back-clip the draws and this is why they failed? If you back clip a draw it will almost certainly fail. However I can't see how a biner would unclip if used correctly, and the four of the them in a row would be impossible. Can you explain this? I'm very curious. I've heard of draws breaking when run over an edge but not unclip.

 

Once in a blue moon I well use a locker on a piece of pro if I'm really run out and the gear is way back inside of a crack. However on normal route I really can't see the point in putting lockers on bolts.

Edited April 28, 2009 by eldiente

[genepires]

I have a couple draws with lockers on them for run out darrington or squish slab routes. (where the loss of one bolt/pro would mean a BIG tumble vs a big tumble)

 

INteresting thought about a cam deep in a crack and the chance of the biner slapping the crack and opening up.

[mattp]

Like Monty and Gene, I like having at least a couple draws set up with lockers on the active end of them.

 

I think monty piton may be referring to "unclipping" when he writes about "back clipping" above. With both bent gate and wire gate carabiners I have seen the new "easy clip" carabiners unclip themselves and in fact I've seen it more with the wire gates than with bent gate spirits, at least.

 

For racking wired stoppers, the aggressive hook on most wire gate carabiners is a bit of a nuisance.

 

For a general purpose 'biner, I like Petzl sprits and have about equal numbers of those and Wild Country Heliums, with a few petzl attache binners on my rack.

[BirdDog]

Thanks for the input.

 

I always carry a few extra lockers or ovals to double up on the rope clip in sketchy situations, sure can give you peace of mind when your 15' above your last piece.

 

 

[shaoleung]

I like to mix up trad/sport/alpine a lot and I don't have a ton of cash to buy separate sets of draws. However, ideally on alpine/trad I go for lighter since you need more gear and I use a bunch of biners to organize my rack. I also pack at least one single with a pair of lockers for my Jesus nut.

 

Bent gates are great for sport, but if you work on your clipping technique it shouldn't make a noticeable difference to use wire gates instead. For trad/alpine I don't think bent gates make much sense.

[montypiton]

responding to eldiente: Mattp is correct that I used the term "backclip" to describe the phenomenon of the belay rope unclipping itself from a carabiner by rapping itself across the biner's gate during a fall. I have always understood the term "back-clip" to mean to clip the rope through a carabiner in the "wrong" direction so that a fall would direct the loaded rope back across the outside of the gate, thus likely unclipping itself under load. (if I am mistaken, it wouldn't be the first time...) This is apparently what happened with my friends. The climber was Dave Jaeks, belayed by Mark Shipman, both of Wenatchee. With some informal testing, I have discovered that I can reproduce the phenomenon pretty dependably if I mount a bentgate carabiner on the rope end of a stiff-sewn dog-bone quickdraw -- so I now incorporate that demonstration in the workshops I teach for rescue personnel, and I avoid both stiff dogbone-style runners, and bentgate carabiners...

[BirdDog]

responding to montypiton: I witnessed a similar thing happen up Icicle a number of years ago. A climber correctly (at the time) clipped in, moving up and to the right of his pro. He then moved to the left and fell, the rope passing across the gate and unclipping from his last piece, resulting in a nasty fall with injuries. His moving left effectively rendered his last clip a "backclip". This guy should have placed another piece before moving left over his last piece and twisting the clip into a backclip situation.

 

My question is how did your buddy unclip from four pieces? In your testing were things clipped correctly or backclipped?

 

Thanks for your input, I'm going pick up wire gates.

Edited April 29, 2009 by BirdDog

[Crillz]

responding to montypiton: I witnessed a similar thing happen up Icicle a number of years ago. A climber correctly (at the time) clipped in, moving up and to the right of his pro. He then moved to the left and fell, the rope passing across the gate and unclipping from his last piece, resulting in a nasty fall with injuries. His moving left effectively rendered his last clip a "backclip". This guy should have placed another piece before moving left over his last piece and twisting the clip into a backclip situation.

 

It sounds like this climber initially backclipped. The rope doesn't suddenly go from being properly clipped to back-clipped just because of a change in direction.

 

Forget what everyone's saying - you must use lockers for everything or you will die!

[mattp]

The dogbone draws lie flat against the rock facing right or left when clipped to a bolt but not necessarily if you clip to a piece of gear and if you use the "trad" draws, with a shoulder length runner tripled over, they orient kind of right or left but not absolutely so. They do sometimes flip around so the rope is ready to unclip itself or at lest so there is an odd twist when you change directions.

 

Does anybody but me think that many wire gates are just as prone to unclipping themselves as the bent gates - or perhaps more so?

[Off_White]

You could always go back to pairs of oval carabiners and just skip all that pesky quickdraw stuff. Be sure to keep a small wired or two on the rack for clipping the odd hangerless stud here and there...

 

[BirdDog]

It sounds like this climber initially backclipped. The rope doesn't suddenly go from being properly clipped to back-clipped just because of a change in direction.

 

Forget what everyone's saying - you must use lockers for everything or you will die!

 

The climber initially clipped a 1st piece and moved up and to the right. He then placed another piece (the one that unclipped) and moved up and to the right, and then left. Initially the 2nd clip biner gate was down and out. When he moved left the biner flipped with the gate in and down. When he fell, on the left of the pro, the rope passed on the inside (rock side)of the biner and unclipped.

[montypiton]

responding to BirdDog & Mattp - my test/demo of a " backclip" is a simple demonstration of HOW a leader's lateral movement above an apparently properly clipped piece can render a "backclip" (perhaps a less confusing and more descriptive/accurate term might be "declip"). I can reproduce the phenomenon most regularly with bentgate carabiners that also have a projecting "nose" at the gate; I can reproduce it slightly less predictably using any biner with that projecting "nose" -- seems to catch the rope and direct it towards the gate; least affected seems to be an oval-shape with no nose-like projection at the opening end of the gate; wire or solid gate seems to make no noticeable difference - its the shape/geometry of the biner that produces the "declip". the crowd I regularly climb with have chosen to address this issue by including locking biners on some of our draws. An equally effective solution would be doubling/opposing carabiners in squirrelly or spooky situations.

 

What might be noted by anyone reading and carefully analyzing this thread, is the unsettling thought that any design characteristic that makes a carabiner easier to clip, also makes it more prone to declip. My choice to stick with a more secure option obviously imposes some risks - like I have to be able to hold on long enough to make the clip! I'd never suggest that my way is the only, or even best, way - but I strongly believe that climbers ought to be aware of the risks presented by their individual climbing styles...

Edited April 29, 2009 by montypiton

[BirdDog]

monty;

yup, pretty much the situation I described above - a backclip becoming a declip. Thanks.

[G-spotter]

consider setting up a few draws with lockers on the rope-end

 

In the annals of ridiculous advice given on this site, this ranks high.

[eldiente]

I'm still a bit confused on this. Am I the only dense one on CC.com?

 

If you backclip the rope, 9 times out of 10 it will fail and you'll fall until you come to a piece that was clipped correctly, or you'll hit the ground. From what montypiton described, his friends backclipped the rope and the predictable thing happened, the rope came unclipped. Did I miss something? It doesn't matter what type of biner you use or what direction the climber moves, a back-clipped draw will almost always fail. A correctly clipped draw will not come unclipped no matter which direction you move or what type of biner is there.

 

On steep roofs or caves it it easy to back-clip as you might be looking at it upside down clipping from below. I've done it several time in steep sport routes. With long slings it can also be tricky to tell if your back-clipped as the biner spins around on the sling. Take a second to pull the slack out of the sling to see which direction the biner is going to hang before you clip it.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2009 by eldiente

[mattp]

Monty: your simple bottom line is exactly right. What I was saying about the wire gates, really, was that many of them have an aggressive "nose" which can direct the rope into the gate.

 

Eldienite, I think your 9 out of 10 times it will fail is a slight exaggeration, but I do try to clip the right way around.

 

Dru, if we ever climb together, I'll prefer to use my rack.

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

[eldiente]

 

Eldienite, I think your 9 out of 10 times it will fail is a slight exaggeration, but I do try to clip the right way around.

 

Good point, I don't recall ever falling on a back-clipped draw so I can't say for sure how often it would fail. However just playing around with a a rope and a draw hanging from a tree branch, it fails every time I back-clip and pull on the rope.