Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
Checat

Zero Bolt Climbing Crag

Recommended Posts

I remember climbing at Traprock CT, where you have to bring a separate rope to sling distant shrubs back from the edge of the cliff. Pain in the arse that, and certainly not less of an eyesore.

 

Similar situation for some routes at Mt Diablo in CA EXCEPT that the rock is sandstone. Net result = deep grooves in rock where anchor ropes and top ropes run. THAT is more irreversible damage than a bolt.

 

Like Bill says, different crags lend themselves to different styles. Index LTW could be trad only and no bolts, but there would be a lot fewer routes and you'd have to top out every time or leave gear behind.

 

BTW, your no bolt crag sounds like a concept that might fly for an article for Climbing. Get someone with a good sense of humor to write it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having climbed at both Traprock and Diablo I'd disagree with your statement about the former and agree with the one about the latter.

 

Hell, Beacon would be absolutely perfect with zero bolts from my perspective. But the clock isn't running backwards out there and what's done is done. If you can establish and maintain a bolt-free crag anywhere in Oregon given its rock quality then more power to you.

 

Also, I have some concern relative to your comments on pins - if you meant it is alright to place and remove pins over the course of a climb or subsequent climbs of a route then I would strongly disagree. If you're going to hammer a pin, then use some skill and judgment - but permanently fix it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you can establish and maintain a bolt-free crag anywhere in Oregon given its rock quality then more power to you.

 

Also, I have some concern relative to your comments on pins - if you meant it is alright to place and remove pins over the course of a climb or subsequent climbs of a route then I would strongly disagree. If you're going to hammer a pin, then use some skill and judgment - but permanently fix it.

 

The basalt is immaculate. The climbing reminds me of other pure trad basalt crags like paradise and devils.

 

I personally do not believe in fixing pins, but i do not deny the damage they cause to the rock. Pounding pins on lead is part of the climbing experience, part that i particularly enjoy. That said I have only used pins on mixed/alpine routes, I haven't yet come across a free climbing section that needed knifeblades, you can put passive in almost anything larger. However there is a decent bit of Aid climbing out there which necessitates pins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I personally do not believe in fixing pins, but i do not deny the damage they cause to the rock.

Fixed, is the only way pins should be used in rock climbing outside of some rare aid exceptions and even those have been the focus of clean aid efforts for several decades.

 

Pounding pins on lead is part of the climbing experience, part that i particularly enjoy. That said I have only used pins on mixed/alpine routes,

Pounding pins absolutely is part of the climbing experience, but removing them on anything but some alpine routes and the rare aid line shouldn't be. On non-alpine crags pins should only be used as fixed pro if they're going to be applied - we've been past the point of using pins as per-climb pro on non-alpine free routes for decades.

 

I haven't yet come across a free climbing section that needed knifeblades, you can put passive in almost anything larger. However there is a decent bit of Aid climbing out there which necessitates pins.

There are non-alpine, free climbing, fixed placements where Lost Arrows and Bugaboos can apply, essentially none need angles. However, in solid Oregon basalt there is little point in fixing anything other than medium and long Lost Arrows, Bugaboos, and soft Euro spades - shorter pins won't stay fixed, knifeblades will corrode. Again, aid climbers have been striving to eliminate pins from their repetoire for decades and even in aid climbing pin racks are so small many argue any necessary should be fixed in that venue as well, but even there are inevitably used excessively, hence clean up efforts such as on Zodiac.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"they exist lots of other places, and are successful and popular".

 

OK, where and what crags?

 

The UK

 

If said area saw no visitors for an extended period of time (months, days, years ?), after that period of time, if a non-climber were to stumble upon the area they would have every reason to believe that they were discovering something new, a wild place that had been previously untouched by human hands...

 

How much moss/tree/shrub clearing, trundling, and trail building is being done? These things may well show the truth even many years after climbing activity ceases. On the other hand, there are plenty of old bolted routes in Squamish at the Smoke Bluffs of which no trace is visible only 5 or 10 years later... Alder and moss reclaim the lines quickly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...the rediscovery of trad climbing has been a good thing...

 

Bill, did I miss something? Why do I suddenly feel like Geronimo on Columbus Day...

 

anyone surprised by the fact that joseph is ignorant of what is happening in the larger world outside the backwater of beacon rock?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...the rediscovery of trad climbing has been a good thing...

 

Bill, did I miss something? Why do I suddenly feel like Geronimo on Columbus Day...

 

anyone surprised by the fact that joseph is ignorant of what is happening in the larger world outside the backwater of beacon rock?

 

There is nothing outside Beacon Rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...the rediscovery of trad climbing has been a good thing...

 

Bill, did I miss something? Why do I suddenly feel like Geronimo on Columbus Day...

 

anyone surprised by the fact that joseph is ignorant of what is happening in the larger world outside the backwater of beacon rock?

 

:wave: me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...the rediscovery of trad climbing has been a good thing...

 

Bill, did I miss something? Why do I suddenly feel like Geronimo on Columbus Day...

 

anyone surprised by the fact that joseph is ignorant of what is happening in the larger world outside the backwater of beacon rock?

 

Off hand, I'd say that:

 

a) you didn't get the joke

 

b) you were clipping bolts so long you failed to notice people have been trad climbing all along

 

c) the percentage of climbers capable of being responsibile for their own safety on a rock dwindled to the point where the vast majority forgot it was even possible, let alone desirable

 

d) 'adventure climbing' is no longer an oxymoron wielded by those seeking to move 'climbing' even further into the shadows

 

or

 

e) all of the above

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good thread, bolting discussions (arguements) are important and relevant. Helps others see where people are coming from.

 

This particular crag....

Hard routes

Lots of moss to scrub.

Long approach

Excellent rock

Great pro

Plenty of trees on top to TR off

 

Everything about this area is hard, scary, dirty, tiring, painful, long, etc. So, I think it's safe to say that can be pretty low in the fun factor for most people.

 

But, it all comes down to respect.

The first caucasion rock climber to discover the place has been clear from the beginning requesting no bolts. Those he has graciously invited (basically everyone he knows) to enjoy, route scrub, and develop, have all shared the same vision for the place.

A climber either respects those that came before them or they don't. If they don't they can be sure to upset.

 

I fully believe this place will remain bolt free. Perhaps because some people view it as "the law", but hopefully they will catch the same spirit that is keeping a climbing area very wild. It's also the same attitude where people don't fight over lines or FA's, they inspire each other to have fun and climb hard. Super refreshing.

 

Edited by luvshaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

joseph, i'd say that, as per usual, it was you who didn't get the joke.

 

luvshaker, i can't imagine anything more tedious or pointless than another bolting discussion. apparently scrubbing moss, building trails, and strangling trees with webbing are all activities deemed "natural", but putting in a nice bolt anchor that would protect the trees from abuse is somehow "capitlistic".

 

what a load of bs...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're the one who made the ludicrous "rediscovery" comment, and right on the heels of the equally ridiculous "cams and stoppers aren't manmade artifacts just like bolts". Just who's out of touch with reality here...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good thread, bolting discussions (arguements) are important and relevant. Helps others see where people are coming from.

 

This particular crag....

Hard routes

Lots of moss to scrub.

Long approach

Excellent rock

Great pro

Plenty of trees on top to TR off

 

Everything about this area is hard, scary, dirty, tiring, painful, long, etc. So, I think it's safe to say that can be pretty low in the fun factor for most people.

 

But, it all comes down to respect.

The first caucasion rock climber to discover the place has been clear from the beginning requesting no bolts. Those he has graciously invited (basically everyone he knows) to enjoy, route scrub, and develop, have all shared the same vision for the place.

A climber either respects those that came before them or they don't. If they don't they can be sure to upset.

 

I fully believe this place will remain bolt free. Perhaps because some people view it as "the law", but hopefully they will catch the same spirit that is keeping a climbing area very wild. It's also the same attitude where people don't fight over lines or FA's, they inspire each other to have fun and climb hard. Super refreshing.

 

The first "caucasion"?

 

Sounds like you want to preserve the rock (which is not a living thing), more than the trees (which is a living thing with an eco system attached). Webbing and ropes around the trees slowing killing them.

 

Do you guys own the property....because your "law" makes it sound like you do. Bolts dont make climbing bad. People make climbing bad.

 

 

all and all......this place sounds like a huge waste of rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

all and all......this place sounds like a huge waste of rock.

 

fine don't go

 

and speaking of wasting stop breathing my air will ya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all and all......this place sounds like a huge waste of rock.

 

To you Kevin. It "sounds like a huge waste of rock" TO YOU. Which is why you won't be climbing there. You know that you are not speaking for me and obviously some others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bolts dont make climbing bad. People make climbing bad.

Bolts don't make climbing bad, indiscriminant people with indiscriminant bolts do...

 

all and all......this place sounds like a huge waste of rock.

Coming from you I'd say that makes it a ringing endorsement for the place - sign me up the next time I'm down that way. It also sounds like you boys should consider watching ebay for some Crack 'N Ups and Loweballs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

luvshaker, i can't imagine anything more tedious or pointless than another bolting discussion. apparently scrubbing moss, building trails, and strangling trees with webbing are all activities deemed "natural", but putting in a nice bolt anchor that would protect the trees from abuse is somehow "capitlistic".

 

what a load of bs...

 

There are only a couple (two I believe) designated rap trees the rest are webbing free. Moss grows back, trails grow over, and 100+foot tall several feet wide tree are not going to be strangled by webbing. I see trees that over grow barbed wire all over the place, this is just webbing.

 

But....bolt holes and bolts are not overgrown by the rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all and all......this place sounds like a huge waste of rock.

 

To you Kevin. It "sounds like a huge waste of rock" TO YOU. Which is why you won't be climbing there. You know that you are not speaking for me and obviously some others.

 

 

Yes.....to me Bill. That is right. When I post....I only post my opinion.

 

To leave beautiful faces (if there are such there) that can only protect with bolts....is a waste of precious rock. There is only so much rock to go around.....God I wish I was single with a shit load of time on my hands.....i would come down there and add a few bolts and there would nothing anyone could do about it......

 

chop chop chop....

 

 

drill drill drill......

 

 

chop chop chop......

 

 

drill drill drill.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

just kidding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good, that's all settled - can we now move on to the oh so important matter of keeping this 'new' crag chalk-free as well...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But....bolt holes and bolts are not overgrown by the rock.

 

 

That is because the rock is not alive. It does not feel or care what happens to it.

 

 

You guys and your "damage to the rock" mentality........what about the tree’s killed to pave the road you drove on to get to the crag…..where were you when that happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good, that's all settled - can we now move on to the oh so important matter of keeping this 'new' crag chalk-free as well...?

 

 

hahahah....wait, you are serious.

 

What about a free solo crag only? No gear can be used....it might scratch the rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

luvshaker, i can't imagine anything more tedious or pointless than another bolting discussion. apparently scrubbing moss, building trails, and strangling trees with webbing are all activities deemed "natural", but putting in a nice bolt anchor that would protect the trees from abuse is somehow "capitlistic".

 

what a load of bs...

 

There are only a couple (two I believe) designated rap trees the rest are webbing free. Moss grows back, trails grow over, and 100+foot tall several feet wide tree are not going to be strangled by webbing. I see trees that over grow barbed wire all over the place, this is just webbing.

 

But....bolt holes and bolts are not overgrown by the rock.

 

ask an arborist whether wrapping slings around trees is harmless.

 

the moss isn't going to grow back as long as people keep climbing there, nor will the trails grow over as long as people keep using them to get to the crag. the point is that human activity changes things, so if you want it to remain "natural", then you have to ban all activity and close the place to climbing.

 

you guys are a laugh. you think you are so pure because you aren't using bolts but you are still changing the environment. the carbon footprint of manufacturing trad gear has to be greater than that of manufacturing what you need to climb a sport route (the bolts are reused by every climber who does the route whereas trad route requires everyone to have their own equipment). the "capitalistic" climbing gear industry makes a lot more money selling you a cam than it does selling you a quickdraw, yet somehow the cam is some sort of anti-capitalist thing and the quickdraw is selling out to the man.

 

like i said, what a load of bs...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

To leave beautiful faces (if there are such there) that can only protect with bolts....is a waste of precious rock. There is only so much rock to go around.....God I wish I was single with a shit load of time on my hands.....i would come down there and add a few bolts and there would nothing anyone could do about it......

 

Statements like this make me think that a ban on bolting in the wilderness might not be such a bad thing . . .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all and all......this place sounds like a huge waste of rock.

 

kevbone please keep thinking that this place is a huge waste of rock because your the last person I would want joining the fun out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×