Black Prophet

[aspencir]

I just bought a lightly used pair of carbon fiber Black Prophet tools, one straight shaft and one bent, and then messing around on the internet found an old Black Diamond recall notice. The straight shaft tool looks to have a number within the recall range. When I called BD customer service they said they were dangerous and I should send them in right away. They're the ones with only 5" of rubber coating. Nothing is cracked or loose, should I be worried that they'll explode in my hands?

[suckbm]

Who cares about them breaking, send them in and you might get a new tool!

[Tokogirl]

Aspencir,

The recall was limited to the manufacturing run listed. They test within lot numbers for potential issues and found there could be a problem with all within that number range. BD would prefer not to have any of those out there and would rather you have a safe product to climb with.

Bottom line - send it in!

[aspencir]

So far it's a nice offer to discount the price of new tools, but I didn't want to spend that much money, which is why I shopped for used stuff. I wish they would just test the tools, and rebuild or replace, like they used to. Since there's no sign that the heads are separating from the shafts so far, I'd rather keep them if the only downside is slight risk they'll loosen.

[wdietsch]

$10 says you get a new Cobra

[Dane]

BD aint your typical toy store. If they are saying send the sticks in because you might die...believe them.

 

Let them know your situation and ask if they have a "good guy" deal on some older tools for you at a price you can afford. Better to have faulty gear off the market than have someone still climbing on it. I suspect they'll go out of their way to help you out.

 

 

[rocky_joe]

Dane is right. Every time I have dealt with BD they have been absolutely stellar. I'm sure they'll help you out. Send it in.

[aspencir]

I agree, BD has been great, couldn't ask for nicer folks. But one of the tools isn't even in the recall number range. I already asked if they had any old x-15's, shrikes or rubberized prophets laying around that I could trade for, but no luck. If I take the deal, I'll have to sell two new vipers that I didn't get for free (I don't expect that), so maybe I'll just do that and hope for the best. What am I bid? I was hoping someone had experience w/ recalled CFBP's.

[Dane]

 

Guess i don't get it. Why would you sell the Vipers? Ten times the tool compared to a CF BP in any version. Even mated to the single CF BP it would make a nice set of tools.

 

FWIW Twight used a similar set up out of choice on the Solvak Route, Denali, CFBP and the then new CF Cobra.

That and the fact that when a shaft fails it can make finishing what you started more difficult

 

 

[rbw1966]

I think what aspencir is trying to say is that BD is offering a discount on vipers if he/she sends in the recalled tool. BD is not offering the vipers for free and because aspenccir can't (or doesnt want to) afford new tools, he/she is offering the vipers up for sale so he/she can buy used tools within his/her price range.

 

Correct?

[aspencir]

Correct, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

[ScaredSilly]

I have two of these that were part of the recall. Harmy tested the heads and then marked them as such and gave back to me and said have fun. Who did you talk to at BD? Elmo or Paul. Elmo is running the customer service while Paul runs the QA. You "might" be able to talk with Paul and have him test them.

[aspencir]

Thanks for the "hands on" constructive advice. I've been dealing w/ Elmo, but I'll try your suggestion. I'm not trying to rip BD off, even if I could turn around and make some $ by selling a pr of vipers, and would be happier to find out my tools test out ok. How long ago did you have yours tested? Wondering if they still have the equip or capability to do so.

[rbw1966]

Harmston hasn't been at BD for several years so that might tell you how long its been since his tools were tested. They can still test them but I doubt they will. The liability is HUGE.

[ScaredSilly]

Chris tested those tools around 1997/1998??? So long ago I do not remember. They should still be able to test them as I believe Chris gave them a pull test which did not require any special jigs. But as was said not sure they will. Paul is your best bet.

 

No worries with the dilemma - they are great tools and I would hate to give mine up. Elmo always tries to make the customer happy.

[aspencir]

Wonder how I'd tell if the one in the suspect series has been tested way back when? You'd think they'd mark them somehow. Waiting to hear back from Elmo, and certainly not unhappy w/ BD.

[Hugh Conway]

our very own Jerzy Kukuczka

[mkporwit]

Except he died due to rope failure (or should I say cord failure), rather than tool failure...

[robpatterson5]

I'm not sure why they do not just replace them. Seems like 10 years ago that was what they would do. I`m not sure why the hastle?

If the tools are unsafe in my mind they have a responsability to get them back and leave you with a tool that is safe.

I understand the issue with upgrading you for free and it being a cost to them, but isent that the cost of doing bussness. At the time the CFBP`s were the top of the line tool. They could at least give you a set of Vennoms and tech picks.

[ScaredSilly]

Harmy marked them with a C running into the H that is ingraved on the face of the head where the hammer/adaze mates (i.e were the rubber gasket sits). It should be near the serial number.

 

 

As for why does BD not just replace the tools. The tools are no longer under any warranty and there was no official recall (from the point of view FTC). As such their offer is reasonable given the tools are 12+ years old.

 

Here is one link:

http://www.mountaintools.com/techtips/index.html#

 

 

 

[robpatterson5]

The notice says that the CFBPs will be, ``inspected and either returned, rebuilt or replaced within 15 working days``.

The notice has no expiery date, I think BD needs to remain true to their product safety advisory.

 

NOT repairing or replacing the tool might mean some liability if the owner does not send them in b/c he can not afford a new pair.

As in BD refused to honour their own Product Safety Advisory after the OP contacted them. Also what if this means that someone else does not return their CFBP after reading this and gets hurt (admitedly small chance).

 

BD made an unsafe tool and their need to either repair it, refund him the cost (not really feasable) or replace it with something equivalent. There is no reason the OP should be having to pay for this. I am suprised by BD; in the sceme of things its a small part of the cost of doing buisness and right now they look bad.

[ScaredSilly]

The notice says that the CFBPs will be, ``inspected and either returned, rebuilt or replaced within 15 working days``.

The notice has no expiry date, I think BD needs to remain true to their product safety advisory.

 

So you think that after 12 years BD should offer him a new tool free of charge because the original owner did not bother to send in the tool???? Even though at this point the tool is no longer made and in some regards nearing the end of it life time.

 

There is also the possibility that the tool has been so worked the inspection test could break the tool - i.e. the tool fails not because of the potential mfg problem but because it is old. It would really suck for BD to have this happen. Sorry dude the head was good but the rest of the tool sucked. Can't help you. (I have seen other companies do something similar).

 

NOT repairing or replacing the tool might mean some liability if the owner does not send them in b/c he can not afford a new pair.

 

At this point BD has done their due diligence. The OP knows of the potential problem. If the OP decides to continue to use the tools then it is his responsibility.

 

As in BD refused to honour their own Product Safety Advisory after the OP contacted them. Also what if this means that someone else does not return their CFBP after reading this and gets hurt (admitedly small chance).

 

I do not see it this way at all. BD has said we are no longer testing these tools as they have been discontinued for ~8 years. We have no equivalent tool to replace it. As said above, the consumer has some responsibility - especially given they bought it used. Rather than have the OP stuck with some that may be unsafe they are in affect buying from him by offering a discount on a set of new tools. This is fairly std.

 

BD made an unsafe tool and their need to either repair it, refund him the cost (not really feasible) or replace it with something equivalent. There is no reason the OP should be having to pay for this. I am suprised by BD; in the sceme of things its a small part of the cost of doing buisness and right now they look bad.

 

No there is no reason the OP should be stuck with it. He should return it to whom ever sold to him and demand his money back. The original owner should be stuck with it as they should delt with the problem 12 years ago.

 

Oddly enough before I bought my set, I took my old blue shaft tools in cause the shaft on one was slightly bent. Harmy took one look at them an laughed. He said after decade plus years of hard use don't you think it is time to update your tools? He was right they has lived their life - they hammer is now down at a store as museum piece.

 

 

[robpatterson5]

Yes, I think BD should replace that tool. Not the tool that is outside of the recall, but the one that is should be replaced or repaired.

12 years ago they would have done it becouse the tool is unsafe, they should test or replace it now.

 

Shape wise - give him a Venom; tech and cost wise - a Viper or Cobera. Or give him A Venom OR a discount on a a Viper or Cobera.

 

Comunicate to him about other modes of failure. If that happens offer him a discount on a new tool. No cost for BD, good for their image.

 

The recall notice says test, return or replace. The OP wants them tested becouse he can not afford a new tool. If they will not test, replace.

 

 

As a consumer and a climber who has a lot of BD gear on their rack, this is the kind of stuff that I will remember and will think about when looking at new gear (and yes I know alot of the time BD is fantastic; but if they have put out an safty advisory - what the hell is BD thinking not doing their best to get unsafe and recalled gear back?)

 

 

Edited to add: if the tool is really in the condition that the OP indicated (ie very lighly used) I doubt that 12 years in storage (asuming a clean, dry space) counts as at the end of the tools life.

Edited February 14, 2009 by robpatterson5

[Hugh Conway]

Except he died due to rope failure (or should I say cord failure), rather than tool failure...

 

thanks for the news flash douchebag

 

Why won't they replace it? Because the were made well over a decade ago

 

BLACK PROPHET

 

BENT SHAFT ICE TOOL

 

Specific Batch RECALL

 

Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd. is issuing a RECALL for specific batches of Black Prophet Bent Shaft Ice Tools because of recent shaft failures (this recall does not apply to straight shaft tools). Over the last year we have seen approximately 1% returns from specific suspect batches that have failed due to delamination of the composite material from the aluminum core. We have determined that it is relatively easy to delaminate the composite in the shaft of the suspect tools if you miss-hit it on an ice bulge or rock edge. This failure is generally not catastrophic if you regularly inspect and discontinue using your tool after such a damage causing miss-hit. To tell if your shaft is damaged look for bubble like bumps or ridges or for large dents (cuts in the rubber from crampon deballing are not a concern). With continued use of a damaged shaft there is the possibility that the head can separate from the shaft rendering the tool useless for climbing or self arrest. Therefore, we are requesting that all owners of the specific tools send them in for replacements so this failure does not occur while you are climbing.

 

The suspect tools were manufactured between December 1994 and December 1995 (tools made in January 1995 are not part of this suspect group). It is very easy to tell if your tool belongs to this group of suspect tools. Look under the pick attachment point on the head of the tool where an engraved number will be present. If this number is either "D94" or falls between 5030 and 5365 then you have one of the suspect tools (tools with no numbers or numbers other than the above are not suspect and are fine to continue using. O94 is a valid number which is not part of the recall). If you have tools with the suspect numbers, we ask that you contact the store where you purchased the tool and obtain a replacement tool. If you are unable to contact your store you should package your tool and send it to us and we will replace it. If you are sending your tool to us directly use the following address:

 

BP Recall

Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd.

2084 E 3900 So.

Salt Lake City, Utah 84124.

 

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you,

The Employee Owners Of Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd.

 

Any questions should be directed to:

Chris Harmston

Quality Assurance Manager

801-273-5508

email: chrish@bdel.com

 

Posted to Rec.Climbing by Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com)

Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.

Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.

2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552

[mike1]

Our very own douchebag.