billcoe Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Link to current accident The problem, as I see it, is that generally beginners, but occasionally experienced folks as well, go to set up a top rope on the top of Silver Bullet. The go and start the downclimb, then slip and bite the dirt. A lot of the accidents are right there, doing that. Is it time for a fixed line, rap bolts, mandatory training? What? Here's an earlier thread of another accident - possibly the same area. Link to former accident Silver Bullet and Video are the problem areas as I see it. It seems most folks get hurt while going unroped for the chains on top of the cliff to set up a toprope. I started to dig out the top of Flaky Old Man last year so it's not so steep on the edge and saw someone else had picked up the burden and even done some more. (it could use even more) Good on whomever that was. I've seen so many noobs (and people who should know better) not tie any backup and walk right to the steep, slippery edge to reach over the void and grab the chains..... I was just standing next to Joseph one day on top of Blackberry Jam, I think looking a that washing machine someone had tossed over the edge, and just banana peeled. Had the landing not been flat, like at Video, it could have been Mr Toads Wild Ride! Where's those wild Broughton bolters folks are complaining about on another thread:-) Seriously, any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 My only thought is the Butte is the most dangerous climbing area I've climbed at in all of my 35 years of climbing. The combination of nearness, familiarity, innocuousness, and slick-as-snot mud are just nasty - I'm always on high alert out there the moment I step off the pavement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 if they shotcreted all of rocky butte, could we then go ahead and bolt the shit out of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 and would that really make it any worse than it already is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat_Roslyn Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 if they shotcreted all of rocky butte, could we then go ahead and bolt the shit out of it? Well, that would be one way to keep all them loose boulders in place! Long as you put masking tape on all the sweet cracks first so you can still get fingerlocks....jus' sayin'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 personally, since seeing or hearing about a wise climber setting up rap lines up higher at silver bullet wall, I've taken to doing the same thing. A single-line rap off a tree to get down to the chains at either silver bullet or flakey old man (or numerous other climbs at RB) is worth the extra time. Maybe that tip should go into the PRC guidebook. But I doubt that rappel bolts or a fixed line would help much or last very long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_forester Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I don't think that additional bolts or fixed lines are going to make the butte any safer. It's fundamentally a pretty dangerous place to set up a toprope, especially when it's wet and muddy. There's definitely access trails that I avoid when it's wet (silver bullet, warrior wall). What folks need to stay safe there is (1) good judgment and (2)knowledge of options for setting up a rappel line or a fixed/safety line. I've been lucky enough to have climbed out there a lot with Bill, who knows the area real well and showed me a bunch of great spots to set up safety lines, etc. Folks aren't generally used to having to rig up a fixed line in order to set up a toprope anchor, but the butte is special in this regard; there's spots where it's kind of crazy not to use a fixed line or a rappel to get to the anchors. In general, I'd say if it looks at all sketchy, look around for the nearest big tree and build an anchor. Extra webbing and short ropes always come in handy at the butte. Choose rappelling over downclimbing when you can. I'd be fine with a couple more rap bolts but like hemp22 says they probably would disappear pretty soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 For what it is worth. I've replaced the same set of rap anchors twice out there, only to see them get chopped within a day. This anchor has been chopped a few times already, there is at lest 8 holes there now and a mess of a epoxy to boot. Who is chopping all these anchors? I replaced the bolts as I was getting tired of rigging long static lines to trees and wanted to make it a bit safer getting to the edge. Oddly enough, there is one bolt for an anchor there (old) and whoever chops the new anchors always leaves this one behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 personally, since seeing or hearing about a wise climber setting up rap lines up higher at silver bullet wall, I've taken to doing the same thing. I only do that when it's wet or I have beginners with me Jeff, so it has to be someone else I'm sure. How about just a shorty fixed rope hitched on the trees there? That's not adding anything permanent and it can be a beater that will easily take bodyweight, so when bubba pulls it cause he needs a tow rope or someone objects to the "new" pro, the loss won't hurt financially. People can put on their harness's on top and clip it with a daisy. The downside is that the toothless crankers and riff raff will be more able to get down it to steal the backpacks that people leave on top there. (I think I've heard that story at least 3 distinctly different times). It's the just getting TO the bolts on the edge of these climbs thats dangerous. Once folks get on them, they seem to do OK. The note in the book is a good idea as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 It's a bummer whoever is chopping out at the Butte can't manage a single conversation around it. It seems pretty clear to me it must be some older climber who is actively climbing and likely someone Bill knows. Are there no other old guys you folks regularly run across out there? Bill, this isn't one of those Sybil sort of deals is it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 It had always been a great mystery to me. I've always assumed the bolt chopper was a non-climber, maybe a local land-owner or some folks from the Bible School. It would make no sense for a climber to chop anchors from an established route, especially at a dirty crag like that. I'd give $$$ to find out who this person(s) is. PM me for your reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Who is going to set up some Video? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 Don't know for Syble but there's plenty of strange stuff out that way. I run into people who I've never seen EVER in my life out there. Last year I ran into 2 different people, both of whom said they had been climbing out there for years and years: one of whom said he'd been going there for 26 years, and the other said something like 20 years, whom I'd never ever seen before. BTW, I drilled the holes on top a bit ago when I was out there with Crackman of the super crack there, Crack Warrior, in the middle wall but haven't put in chains yet. Posted it here and must have talked to 20-40 people about it last summer, most of whom had never heard of the route, didn't know where it was, and could totally care less if I wanted to do bolts or probably even widen the jams with a chizzel, but I did meet 3 dudes climbing together that just lit me up. They were outrageously and totally pissed that people were putting in convience anchors where none had ever existed before, like Bluebird and White Rabbit, but it turned out they didn't know where Crack Warrior was. The approach is real hidden, and one of the best routes there stays dirty cause no one does it. I explained about the big fir that had snapped and rotted and how there is no good pro as the only thing that looks like a crack was break in a boulder and they got quiet on that issue. I crept away quietly. Cleaned up the approach for CW and dug it out too so it's safer as well. Left a bolt next to the shit pin that some kind soul had left there. Now I need to pound the chains. That lack of knowing people just happened again. I just PMed Adam as he's 30 and goes out there regularly, and he said he was wondering if it was a dude I'd never heard of called Matthew something who lives right there and climbs there all the time...and who is 30 years old, like the artical says. So we'll see. Hopefully the dude is OK. BTW, how come everyone is talkin about bolts (here) and birds (Beacon) and there's hardly a comment about Adams naked ascent of his still as yet unnamed NEW route? NAKED PICS NOT SAFE FOR WORK later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 Adam says that his buddy was there climbing yesterday but left before the accident. F*k, must be a tough breed of kid, I thought it was pretty cold to be climbing in the shade....but I guess I'm getting to where I'd rather curl up around a warm fire all winter anymore.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Sybil was that old movie about a woman with multiple personalities. You're not out there drilling on one day and chopping the next are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 No and my head isn't spinning around spitting out pee soup either I wonder if I should just head over tonight and put up some kind of fixed guide rope. I just accidentally chopped another rope last month so I should have plenty of old ones (but it's still hanging out) Wonder how that would run, or if it would just be getting in the way>? Jim mentioned that the fixed line on LOTLP was put in during the 90's I think he said. You must be the only person doing routing maintenance out there and haven't gotten to that yet, I'd have a fear that a rope would eventually break on someone at RB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've avoided violating the sanctity of LOTLP during any of my activities - I'll leave that to the official order of the grail. I have a few chopped ropes as well, though, if they are needed either place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've avoided violating the sanctity of LOTLP during any of my activities - I'll leave that to the official order of the grail. Wow....thanks. I have asked jim many times about the rope. It does need to be replaced. It was put there in 1998 for a ledge party we had. About 20 people showed up and lots of dinking ensued. Jim wanted a focal point to tie into for everybody. What about the rap on the tree? I would prefer to have a rap anchor over to the left where the chimney comes out and get the webbing off the tree....I know Jim would have a tissy fit if someone did this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 IMO its not about how strong the tree is...but how shitty is looks and how it will effect the tree's health in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'd say whether you're talking the WSP, WDFW, BRSP or Jim, picking your battles counts. Lisa, the WSP SW Resource Steward, explicitly doesn't want the trees involved, but she and Erik also understand LOTLP is a special place, and that the safety line serves a real purpose, so they've been flexible on that in discussions. I personally wouldn't approach Jim on moving the rap, though any of you are welcome to take a run at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Bill...why did you delete your post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Do you mean trees involved with anchors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Someone should bolt your hands to your head so you can't use a computer anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Do you mean trees involved with anchors? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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