ivan Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I don't think getting state parks involved is the right move here. X 3,000,000,000! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I don't think getting state parks involved is the right move here. X 3,000,000,000! Amen, one bad apples ruins it for the whole batch scenario if the man gets involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I don't think getting state parks involved is the right move here. X 3,000,000,000! Amen, one bad apples ruins it for the whole batch scenario if the man gets involved. Â I'm not encouraging that, in fact, I (honestly) care ZERO about what happens there (I don't even know where TROUTDALE is, let alone the Boroughs...) Â It just seems like bypassing the land manager is akin to vigialantiasm. It is public property. IF WE DON"T HAVE THE SYSTEM, WE'VE GOT NOTHING (I'm joking about that last bit!) Â Overall, I'd image most climbers would prefer to take care of this matter "in house".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markd Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 i have been doing my best not to comment here without actually going out to see it for myself, which has given me some time to think about this vision-less route. Â i find myself wondering, is there any situation that a bolt ladder to nowhere is an acceptable means of new-routing? has there ever been an era that found this style of ascent groundbreaking, if it wasn't used to connect features on long routes? it's 2009 and there is rock climbing gyms everywhere that you can practice bolt ladder climbing. Â those bolts could be used for very positive bolt replacement if they're removed. maybe the fa crew will agree to this and take it down themselves. maybe not though. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 i always saw the most desireable outcome being these guys removing their own bolts after politely being encouraged to do so, for the various reasons already mentioned. Â but i have to say i'm surprised that anyone even remotely considers this "route" to be acceptable, given the context and history of their chosen location - whether or not they retrobolted an aid route or just drilled up up and away in a parallel line 10 feet away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 but i have to say i'm surprised that anyone even remotely considers this "route" to be acceptable, ... Â I have say that anyone even remotely considering this a route is being overly kind. That this ladder qualifies as a route at all, let alone one worthy of preservation, represents a pretty basic philosophical divide, let alone an ethical one. Â These guys clearly had volition, gear, a rope, and went up. Beyond that I'm still having a hard time figuring out where - on the basis of a [natural] line, vision, creativity, skill, or prowess - the leap to a "route" would come into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 hence "route" not route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrush Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm new to climbing, but being in my backyard I stopped by last night and took some pictures. This was the best I could get with the blackberry. After looking at the pics and guidebook, I'd say it crosses the A4 section. Bolts go right up the middle, sorry hard to see. PM if anyone's interested in teaching proper bolt removal techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm new to climbing, but being in my backyard I stopped by last night and took some pictures. This was the best I could get with the blackberry. After looking at the pics and guidebook, I'd say it crosses the A4 section. Bolts go right up the middle, sorry hard to see. PM if anyone's interested in teaching proper bolt removal techniques. hmmm...must be ninja bolts - i can't see a single one! almost like a dali painting... well i guess that about wraps it up for me, no big deal, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 straight up the middle - off that little pedestal? I think that looks like Dracula. But maybe my memory's fuzzy. I think the Wallace/Olson aid line starts at the shaded right facing corner on the left, and goes up through the sort of dog-legging undercling to the left, then follows the tiny seam. It's a bit harder to gauge position relative to Olson's topo now that the tree has fallen over. But thanks for taking the photo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrush Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 True, hard to see when resized. Does this help, ninjas in red? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Sorry, update: I looked at the full-size version of the image in the image gallery: Full size image link And I can see the bolts. Â It looks like they go straight up through the blank section just to the left of dracula. That's a little to the right of the main line drawn in the book as the aid line - but the topo also shows a secondary line traversing over that blank section to join dracula...so, yeah, it looks like they cross. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Beatard Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I was thinking I'd get one last day in at Beacon on Saturday, but after seeing this new line I'm going to go to Broughton instead. Are their any more experienced climbers out their that would be willing to help me select my rack? Beacon will be open again in July anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 thanks for snapping those photos. that's definitely the bolt line. i counted 13 draws hanging, even though you only marked 7 here...is it possible they placed some gear in between bolts???? or did you not mark every bolt? Â anyway...the last bolt shown in the photo - at the small roof - is where the "leader" was when me and my family had to leave. if that's the last bolt they drilled, maybe they stopped after i spoke with them. (it was only about 1 PM) then again, their battery might also just have run out of juice at that point. Â now let's hear from olson or anyone else who knows these routes....just how blasphemous is this "route"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 True, hard to see when resized. Does this help, ninjas in red? Â Â Bryan, when you said said left of Dracula...I thought you meant 20 to 30 feet left. The second bolt here clearly shows a squeeze job. From the top of that pillar you clip the second bolt of dracula. It appears now you can clip a bolt from the same stance. Lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Dang, This is too bad. I am sure it can be chopped and skillfully patched back in? Those guys didnt "Look into" anything but there own selfish whims it seems to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 sounds like another vote for chopping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 After several years I've [finally] gotten pretty good at patches that match all the micro-contours and local texture in the rock and now have access to blendable colored epoxy sticks. I would be happy to assist with the patching. The only caveat being that part of the operation would have to wait until it is a bit warmer for the patches to really take well. Depending on the type of bolt, unscrewing them (5-pc), pulling them with tuning forks (studs), or breaking them by over-tightening and tapping them back in the hole (either) wouldn't need to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 If it is going to be chopped (which sounds likely as most people here seem to agree it should), the sooner the better. (IMO) The longer it stays put, the more likely the "route setter" will be back soon to put in more bolts that will also need to be chopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) If it is going to be chopped (which sounds likely as most people here seem to agree it should), the sooner the better. (IMO) The longer it stays put, the more likely the "route setter" will be back soon to put in more bolts that will also need to be chopped. maybe someone can go ahead an attach to the first bolt a page from the bible w/ a black spot on it? Edited January 28, 2009 by ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 kevbone was just there and took some photos. we talked while he stalked the base. yes, we both need to get lives. he didn't have the guide with him and had trouble seeing the aid lines so can't judge whether they bolted the aid lines for sure. but he did count 13 bolts, including some on the pillar you mantle to start dracula - so at the least they added a new bolted start to dracula. he said they literally drilled the first bolt head-high, near a cam plament. excuse me while i puke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemp22 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) yeah - sounds pretty bad. The base of their route is out of the picture, so there are some bolts closer to ground not shown in the picture. And the picture is fuzzy enough that you probably can't see all their bolts, even in the larger version. Â While I'm in favor of pulling the bolts (& patching cleanly), I also think the guys who did this need to be found & made aware of how many people are opposed to their decision. i.e. so they don't think it's just a 1-man "vigilante"-type who chopped the bolts. Maybe if anyone can get out there on the weekend, try to see if the guys show up again at the scene of the crime. Â also - to the best of my knowledge from memory & the Olson topo, I tried to draw in where I think Dracula (in blue) and the Wallace/Olson "Gym"-themed aid lines (in green) go. But maybe those guys can correct me if I'm off a bit. (Click on photo for larger version) ugh. Edited January 28, 2009 by hemp22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 'The belayer, Tom, told me they had researched the issue and decided to drill a "practice aid route" in that location' Â this thread makes me wonder what sort of 'research' these guys actually did. based upon the tenor of this discussion, i'd say they had insufficient data to support their opinion that this "practice aid route" would be okay with the local climbing community. if their bolts are gone when they go back to 'send' their project, then maybe they will be able to draw the correct conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 kevbone was just there and took some photos. we talked while he stalked the base. yes, we both need to get lives. from the pix, it kinda looks like ya'll shoulda strung up some police tape too  the only thing these pix needs are some circles added to them and explanations on the back of them explaining what each one is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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