dian05 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I think kevbone has the most rational comments...two sides and old routes. Not to mention no one seems to have anything better to do that talk crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 "more" squeeze jobs????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Kevin, I actually trust Bryan with my life when I climb with him, I'll take his word that he's accurately representing what he saw. Â Â I trust Bryan with my life as well. He is one of my best friends. But until you see it for yourself JH....you are still speculating about hearsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Again, I'll say that this has nothing to do with climbing, bolting, ethic, trad or the usual things we yap about. This is just simply a case of some people leaving behind a bunch of metal junk that is of no use to anyone (climber or non-climber) and it should be viewed as litter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 spaiding? sport-aiding?  what i meant by it'll work out is i'd wager it'll get chopped soon and dudes won't re-install it b/c they'll lack the willpower or cash or both to do so  if they retro-bolted an old aid line that was documented in the portland rock guide, then clearly its unforgivable  if they bolted an aid line on a section of rock where they could have got by w/ modern aid-widgetery, then clearly its unforgivable  it they bolted an aid ladder where no route had been before and it could not go any other way, then it's a judgement call, which i'm inclined not to disagree with - an aid ladder to nowhere is pretty lame though i'd agree  can't we just talk shit about them, not let them sit at our lunch table, and generally try to provoke them into developing an eating-disorder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) ...you are still speculating about hearsay. Â Not at all - rap and install anchor, go to base, drill / aid back up to anchor - period. Are you thinking there were mysterious attributes of the rock on that section of Broughtons or some special circumstances these gentlemen found themselves in which can and should imbue this affair with legitimacy? Â [ I'm basically just trying to figure out what would be substantially different between doing it at the Bat Wall and doing it on one of the Fremont Bridge pillars besides a shorter walk... ] Â Â Edited January 26, 2009 by JosephH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 So who wants to go practice aid climbing on a bolt ladder this weekend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 ...you are still speculating about hearsay. Â [ I'm basically just trying to figure out what would be substantially different between doing it at the Bat Wall and doing it on one of the Fremont Bridge pillars besides a shorter walk... ] Â Funny as I've always though those would make good gym routes, bolt on some holds, install bolts and climb. No joke, I bet some of those pillars are 30M+ tall and even have overhanging finishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 best case scenario they bolted a useless aid line to nowhere. are we really debating whether that's a good idea or not on one of our few established crags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 "more" squeeze jobs????? Â You were certainly up in arms a while back about someone bolting what you considered a "squeeze job" on a face out at Ozone - what was the problem and why would you object to more? Or on what basis would you object to these guys or someone else doing a spaid line on a face between a couple of yours given your lines clearly are underbolted for such purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 No doubt. That is clearly very uncool. I like bolts and all but to put a ladder to nowhere on the Bat Wall is lame at best. That wall and some of the others at Broughton's are very cool. Some of yall don't like it there but it's great for PDX climbers. Â These folks could have found plenty of other cliffs to do this at that are not at established climbing crags. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 kevbone: it's not hearsay when i am directly saying it. Â also, the prohibition on hearsay (when such actually exists) is that it deprives the other side of the right to cross-examine the witness. as i'm responding to posts (i.e. being cross-examined) and have first-hand observations, i'm actually providing the opposite of hearsay evidence. Â in other words, i'm actively dispelling misinformation and providing useful info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 ivan nailed it: Â at worst, they bolted an aid line: chop on principle. Â at best, they bolted an aid line 65 feet up blank rock on a pretty chunk of rock in a rock-limited metropolitan area. in a county or state park. and spent at least $150 to do it. future climbers could get the same experience aiding the boltlines at the PRG. perhaps chop to discourage more lame ass lines? Â so yeah, we can (continue) to talk shit at them. but at the same time (and as was pointed out to me), there's at least 15 hangers out there that will only be missed by 2 people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 if any of you do go check it out be sure to hang a tag on one of the bolts with a link to this thread for my workday enjoyment. Â It's hard to imagine someone with the drive, hardware, and knowledge to put in a bunch of bolts to be ignorant to the anger it would cause. Â maybe some plants could be hung from the bolts to spruce it up a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 or at least put a red tag on it to signify you are working the route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I haven't heard anyone talk shit at them - just discuss the merits of what they did. I don't think anyone should talk shit at them, but rather try to figure out what they were thinking, explain why it wasn't the best idea, and ask them to pull it. If they don't, and any of you Broughton folks still care, then go do it for them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ols Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 On Wayne's premier test piece A4+...? Followed Wayne on this one...and personally repeated the lower portion (below the hook section) about a dozen times so it is not a once traveled nail route. A 5.13 climber establishing the next 5.15 free climb would seem legitimate enough. Been wondering if someone might have the energy to work out a free route up through there. Kev & Crimper have a point; a visual is helpful. There may be sufficient room to put a line or two near Hanging Tree and Back To The Gym now that the tree has fallen. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Poulton Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 So, it's not an "old" aid route. There should not be a bolt next to a crack that can easily take pro at a spot that was climbed with pro in the first place. But I don't know how close these bolts are to cracks with out seeing them. It's not like this is Boulder Canyon or Smith where most routes were first climbed with bolts instead of trad gear. I started climbing at the bluff back in high school and there was not one sport route out there....now there are a few. But this bolt ladder doesn't belong. I think I'll go staple some dead roses at the base of the bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimper Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi Tim, looks like you above. Â Before these guys take more abuse, I want to be clear that I am not exactly sure where the bolts are in relation to those old aid lines - but if they're not on the routes, then they're certainly right next to or even between them. Bolt 13 at around 35-40 feet was being used to pull right over the center of a small (2-3 foot) but steep and curving roof that was maybe 15 feet horizontal. The rock above the roof looked mostly blank, at least from my stance about 75 feet back and down, though crossed by a horizontal seam. Sound familiar? Â If someone took some pictures and wernt up there wth a guide we wouldn't have to make any assumptions. Then again who knows how long or deep the passion for this topic will last. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009  If someone took some pictures   Great idea B.....I was thinking the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darstog Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 As somebody who occasionally climbs at Broughton and who would love to be able to project some lines on Bat Wall without entering into a bolt-war-zone, I think it would be very wise to wait awhile before chopping anything. Let cooler heads prevail. Take a look at all of the implications of this bolt line. Â Then again, I can't believe anybody in their right mind would consider putting up a bolt ladder on such a wall. WTF? Â Would love to hear some more answers. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Unless there's miraculously more to the story then Bryan is relating, one can only guess had "cooler heads" prevailed at any point prior to his arrival on the scene then no bolts would have ever been sunk at all. Â I'd be curious to know just what anyone here finds redeeming about rapping for an anchor and then drilling back up to it that even makes it a question? How does this instance even make the leap from a ladder to an aid route, let alone something worthy of equivocating or agonizing over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Poulton Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Well, too bad it's not the Flatirons...then this would be resolved with no questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 It's interesting no one has mentioned the land manager/owner. Isn't this state park territory? Seems like it's their choice (and I'd ASSUME they wouldn't like people installing bolts w/o permission) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I don't think getting state parks involved is the right move here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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