'Clean' Coal anyone?

[bradleym]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/us/27sludge.html?hp

 

anyone?

[wayne]

C'mon it is just 2.6 million cubic yards of arsenic, lead, and selenium.

[Fairweather]

Available alternatives, anyone?

 

 

U.S. Electricity Production 2006

[tvashtarkatena]

I've got a stocking full of it if anyone needs some.

[bradleym]

might as well lie back and enjoy it, i suppose.

[billcoe]

might as well lie back and enjoy it, i suppose.

 

Best just let him finish his business Clark?

 

 

It's at 1 billion and growing! Talk about fu*king up your Kwanza and Festivis celebrations.

[Fairweather]

might as well lie back and enjoy it, i suppose.

 

At least move your hips around a little. 8D

[j_b]

Available alternatives, anyone?

 

There are plenty of alternatives, but the implementation of alternatives needs politcal will and financial investments.

[AlpineK]

The town of Newcastle (north of Renton)was named for the city in England. It got that due to the buried coal. Currently there are remnants of those mines in the woods there. They're pretty darn sketchy.

 

We should seriously think about a big new open pit mine on the flanks of Cougar Mountain.

[pc313]

The town of Newcastle (north of Renton)was named for the city in England. It got that due to the buried coal. Currently there are remnants of those mines in the woods there. They're pretty darn sketchy.

 

We should seriously think about a big new open pit mine on the flanks of Cougar Mountain.

 

Black Diamond has coal mines all over,my brothers front yard is a back filled coal mine with the tracks coal cars still in it,dig down 4 ft. and you hit coal,was closed in the 20s.

 

In the 70-80s my friends had small planes and we flew all over the place and they let me fly so i've seen alot of Washington and Oregon,but the biggest shithole i've seen is a open coal pit!

 

Centralia,Wa. Trans Alta

Closed in 2006 thank god,Fucking land rappers,It makes clear cuts look good!!!

My friends dad worked there and said you could drive a full size truck in to the shovel and turn around!!

[JayB]

Available alternatives, anyone?

 

There are plenty of alternatives, but the implementation of alternatives needs politcal will and financial investments.

 

[serious Question]

 

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

 

 

 

[Fairweather]

Centralia,Wa. Trans Alta

Closed in 2006 thank god,Fucking land rappers,It makes clear cuts look good!!!

 

Even though the electricity from the Centrlaia plant was used primarily by Tacoma Public Utilities, I'm sure they also sold onto the grid that you've used your entire life. Trans Alta did this at your request. You are the rapist.

[pc313]

Centralia,Wa. Trans Alta

Closed in 2006 thank god,Fucking land rappers,It makes clear cuts look good!!!

 

Even though the electricity from the Centrlaia plant was used primarily by Tacoma Public Utilities, I'm sure they also sold onto the grid that you've used your entire life. Trans Alta did this at your request. You are the rapist.

 

Not shure if we used it in Kent (South King County),but as i said it was ugly from the air and big,and in a small plane you can see things you cant see from the main roads,like all the clear cuts in the National Forest. But i'm not a tree hugger,and believe in logging as long as its done right,not a rip off of the peoples land I.E. National Forest,as for coal we have to find a better way to refine it and pit mines are not the best way,i hope its not a super fund clean up site that we all end up paying for?

 

Who knows it might make a nice neighborhood with a few small lakes but plant some trees please!!

 

 

[bradleym]

Available alternatives, anyone?

 

There are plenty of alternatives, but the implementation of alternatives needs politcal will and financial investments.

 

[serious Question]

 

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

 

 

 

i don't know about j_b, but I know I've tried to do that. in addition to conservation within my house, i also (supposedly) purchase 'green' electricity, and i'm even signed up now for 'green' natural gas through nwnatural.

 

problem is, the cfls contain mercury, they don't last worth a damn (7 years?, yeah right), even though they have diminished my electricity usage substantially.

 

financial considerations don't really enter into it--i'm paying more than I used to. But I continue to have nagging doubts about the good i'm really doing, what distortions and displacements I might be creating to make me feel better about the old distortions and displacements. for example, if i put solar panels on the house, am i creating toxic waste for poorer people where the panels were produced?

[bradleym]

so the tone of your responses on this thread, fw, seems to be that because the energy mix nation-wide is very dependent on coal, that we ought not to try to change that. that because i was a coal-polluter in the past, or may today be the recipient of the good things brought by mountain-top removal (i.e. cheap electricity), that i shouldn't be concerned about it.

 

it took years, decades, centuries to get where we are today, and I for one don't expect that we can unwind things overnight, but shouldn't we try? shouldn't we recognize that even if all the CO2 from coal could be captured and pumped underground safely, that the other waste from coal contains concentrations of lead, selenium and arsenic, and it must go somewhere?

 

could it be that there are costs associated with actions and dependencies that are not naturally captured by the market?

[j_b]

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

Energy savings through increasing efficiency and substitution is indeed an essential part of the equation toward sustainable energy consumption. I don't really believe in true altruism so most of my attempts aren't really out of the ordinary and were guided by finances and philosophy; most important changes needed modest investments that we are fortunate to be able to afford and are confident will eventually pay off. To tell the truth, it wasn't very hard because I have always despised most conspicuous consumption and non-durable goods. I strongly feel that quality of life is enhanced through sobriety and quality over quantity , which doesn't imply I am always sober.

 

To be more specific yet brief, over the years we have increased the efficiency of our old house (new insulation, new windows, new appliances that I am concerned have little durability due to planned obsolescence, >90% energy efficient furnace coupled with a heat pump, for the big ticket changes). We regulate closely the temp of our home and put on a sweater before we turn up the heat, unplug electronics, etc ... In other areas, we got rid of all but one of our cars. We are left with a 35mpg, 10 years old japanese car that is shared by everyone in the household; we bike, take public transit, walk and have a zipcar membership for the times we need an extra vehicle. We try to buy local product to avoid susbidized long transport of goods, eat little red meat (once every few month perhaps) and pretty much prepare all food from scratch.

[Fairweather]

so the tone of your responses on this thread, fw, seems to be that because the energy mix nation-wide is very dependent on coal, that we ought not to try to change that. that because i was a coal-polluter in the past, or may today be the recipient of the good things brought by mountain-top removal (i.e. cheap electricity), that i shouldn't be concerned about it.

 

 

I implied no such thing, and your assumption is incorrect. What I did say was that you presented a complaint about the coal you use absent any viable alternative.

[Fairweather]

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

Energy savings through increasing efficiency and substitution is indeed an essential part of the equation toward sustainable energy consumption. I don't really believe in true altruism so most of my attempts aren't really out of the ordinary and were guided by finances and philosophy; most important changes needed modest investments that we are fortunate to be able to afford and are confident will eventually pay off. To tell the truth, it wasn't very hard because I have always despised most conspicuous consumption and non-durable goods. I strongly feel that quality of life is enhanced through quality and sobriety, which doesn't imply I am always sober.

 

To be more specific yet brief, over the years we have increased the efficiency of our old house (new insulation, new windows, new appliances that I am concerned have little durability due to planned obsolescence, >90% energy efficient furnace coupled with a heat pump, for the big ticket changes). We regulate closely the temp of our home and put on a sweater before we turn up the heat, unplug electronics, etc ... In other areas, we got rid of all but one of our cars. We are left with a 35mpg, 10 years old japanese car that is shared by everyone in the household; we bike, take public transit, walk and have a zipcar membership for the times we need an extra vehicle. We try to buy local product to avoid susbidized long transport of goods, eat little red meat (once every few month perhaps) and pretty much prepare all food from scratch.

 

Sorry, but that's not enough. And you have failed to even consider the input energy all of your replacement initiatives required. Words and feelings without real solutions amount to nothing.

[bradleym]

so the tone of your responses on this thread, fw, seems to be that because the energy mix nation-wide is very dependent on coal, that we ought not to try to change that. that because i was a coal-polluter in the past, or may today be the recipient of the good things brought by mountain-top removal (i.e. cheap electricity), that i shouldn't be concerned about it.

 

 

I implied no such thing, and your assumption is incorrect. What I did say was that you presented a complaint about the coal you use absent any viable alternative.

 

fair enough, but i think you're being just a tad disingenuous, requiring someone to lay out an entire alternate supply chain, when the point of the posting was that for a particular reason, and any way you look at it frankly, coal is not clean. a better response would have been 'Coal is clean, or can be made to be, and here's how...'.

[Fairweather]

I don't think anyone can make the case that coal can be made 'clean', but, absent the global catastrophe j_b's dark soul yearns for daily, we aren't going to conserve our way out of that 49% chunk of pie. I don't know exactly what the solution is, but I suspect it might also represent economic salvation if the price is right--and if we get it done first.

[j_b]

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

Energy savings through increasing efficiency and substitution is indeed an essential part of the equation toward sustainable energy consumption. I don't really believe in true altruism so most of my attempts aren't really out of the ordinary and were guided by finances and philosophy; most important changes needed modest investments that we are fortunate to be able to afford and are confident will eventually pay off. To tell the truth, it wasn't very hard because I have always despised most conspicuous consumption and non-durable goods. I strongly feel that quality of life is enhanced through quality and sobriety, which doesn't imply I am always sober.

 

To be more specific yet brief, over the years we have increased the efficiency of our old house (new insulation, new windows, new appliances that I am concerned have little durability due to planned obsolescence, >90% energy efficient furnace coupled with a heat pump, for the big ticket changes). We regulate closely the temp of our home and put on a sweater before we turn up the heat, unplug electronics, etc ... In other areas, we got rid of all but one of our cars. We are left with a 35mpg, 10 years old japanese car that is shared by everyone in the household; we bike, take public transit, walk and have a zipcar membership for the times we need an extra vehicle. We try to buy local product to avoid susbidized long transport of goods, eat little red meat (once every few month perhaps) and pretty much prepare all food from scratch.

 

Sorry, but that's not enough. And you have failed to even consider the input energy all of your replacement initiatives required. Words and feelings without real solutions amount to nothing.

 

Along with many other things, I also didn't mention you were a dimwit but It doesn't mean I haven't considered it.

[JayB]

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

Energy savings through increasing efficiency and substitution is indeed an essential part of the equation toward sustainable energy consumption. I don't really believe in true altruism so most of my attempts aren't really out of the ordinary and were guided by finances and philosophy; most important changes needed modest investments that we are fortunate to be able to afford and are confident will eventually pay off. To tell the truth, it wasn't very hard because I have always despised most conspicuous consumption and non-durable goods. I strongly feel that quality of life is enhanced through sobriety and quality over quantity , which doesn't imply I am always sober.

 

To be more specific yet brief, over the years we have increased the efficiency of our old house (new insulation, new windows, new appliances that I am concerned have little durability due to planned obsolescence, >90% energy efficient furnace coupled with a heat pump, for the big ticket changes). We regulate closely the temp of our home and put on a sweater before we turn up the heat, unplug electronics, etc ... In other areas, we got rid of all but one of our cars. We are left with a 35mpg, 10 years old japanese car that is shared by everyone in the household; we bike, take public transit, walk and have a zipcar membership for the times we need an extra vehicle. We try to buy local product to avoid susbidized long transport of goods, eat little red meat (once every few month perhaps) and pretty much prepare all food from scratch.

 

I think that for most people - even those who are extremely concerned about reducing their consumption for environmental reasons - it's hard to justify investments in alternative energy generation and/or major capital upgrades to improve efficiency because the payoff period may exceed the length of time that they'll stay in the house, and they may not recoup the investment via energy savings or a higher sales price.

 

Seems like one way to promote bottom-up investments in energy/efficiency would be to channel some of the subsidies that we pay the average homeowner via the mortgage-interest deduction into some sort of an incentive scheme that reduces people's reluctance to invest in alternative energy/efficiency upgrades for their homes.

 

In an ideal world, there'd be no mortgage subsidy, but since we've already crossed that threshhold and made the majority of home owners dependent on federal subsidies - there's little ground left to oppose putting strings on it that would reduce energy consumption, boost output from alternative sources, etc.

[Fairweather]

You seem like a guy who has probably made investments in your own home to conserve energy and/or make use of alternatives.

 

What investments have you made in one or the other, and to what extent did financial considerations influence your choices.

 

[serious question/]

 

Energy savings through increasing efficiency and substitution is indeed an essential part of the equation toward sustainable energy consumption. I don't really believe in true altruism so most of my attempts aren't really out of the ordinary and were guided by finances and philosophy; most important changes needed modest investments that we are fortunate to be able to afford and are confident will eventually pay off. To tell the truth, it wasn't very hard because I have always despised most conspicuous consumption and non-durable goods. I strongly feel that quality of life is enhanced through quality and sobriety, which doesn't imply I am always sober.

 

To be more specific yet brief, over the years we have increased the efficiency of our old house (new insulation, new windows, new appliances that I am concerned have little durability due to planned obsolescence, >90% energy efficient furnace coupled with a heat pump, for the big ticket changes). We regulate closely the temp of our home and put on a sweater before we turn up the heat, unplug electronics, etc ... In other areas, we got rid of all but one of our cars. We are left with a 35mpg, 10 years old japanese car that is shared by everyone in the household; we bike, take public transit, walk and have a zipcar membership for the times we need an extra vehicle. We try to buy local product to avoid susbidized long transport of goods, eat little red meat (once every few month perhaps) and pretty much prepare all food from scratch.

 

Sorry, but that's not enough. And you have failed to even consider the input energy all of your replacement initiatives required. Words and feelings without real solutions amount to nothing.

 

 

 

Based on your list I can't help but think you are more interested in building a pedestal upon which to stand and lecture others than in any real, meaningful environmental considerations. Dumb.

[j_b]

I think that for most people - even those who are extremely concerned about reducing their consumption for environmental reasons - it's hard to justify investments in alternative energy generation and/or major capital upgrades to improve efficiency because the payoff period may exceed the length of time that they'll stay in the house, and they may not recoup the investment via energy savings or a higher sales price.

 

Seems like one way to promote bottom-up investments in energy/efficiency would be to channel some of the subsidies that we pay the average homeowner via the mortgage-interest deduction into some sort of an incentive scheme that reduces people's reluctance to invest in alternative energy/efficiency upgrades for their homes.

 

In an ideal world, there'd be no mortgage subsidy, but since we've already crossed that threshhold and made the majority of home owners dependent on federal subsidies - there's little ground left to oppose putting strings on it that would reduce energy consumption, boost output from alternative sources, etc.

 

The residential sector represents >20% of the total US energy bill (40% with commercial)and probably near the same % of CO2 emissions, so drastic changes are ineluctable in both these areas. On the other hand, ramping up the residential demand for more efficient clean technologies will contribute to optimizing it and decrease unit cost. It seems safe to say that directly subsidizing in part the cost of increasing the efficiency of homes is likely to be a good investment. Concerning financing alternatives clean source of energy, we have no choice at least because of climate change and energy independence (think of all the savings in the bloated military/war budget), so whether we build solar plants or wind farms or more diffuse power generating grids, it's a matter of geography and not whether we'll spend the money to do it.

Edited December 29, 2008 by j_b