20 million dead... but they deserved it

[billcoe]

Trying to keep it all in perspective on what is important to me and us as a country? What is #1 on all of our lists. Freedom. All else follow. Truth would be nice as well. I understand that sometimes you don't get it or it's not entirly correct, we have instances of it in the US for sure, ....but this seems so sad to me.

 

link

 

"Stalin's mass murders were 'entirely rational' says new Russian textbook praising tyrant

 

By Will Stewart

Last updated at 1:10 AM on 03rd September 2008

 

 

Stalin acted ‘entirely rationally’ in executing and imprisoning millions of people in the Gulags, a controversial new Russian teaching manual claims.

 

Fifty-five years after the Soviet dictator died, the latest guide for teachers to promote patriotism among the Russian young said he did what he did to ensure the country’s modernisation.

 

The manual, titled A History of Russia, 1900-1945, will form the basis of a new state-approved text book for use in schools next year.

 

It seems to follow an attempt backed by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to re-evaluate Stalin’s record in a more positive light.

 

Critics have taken exception, however, to numerous excerpts, which they say are essentially attempts to whitewash Stalin’s crimes.

 

In the West, it has been widely accepted that in the 1920s millions were shot, exiled to Siberia, or died of starvation after their land, homes and meagre possessions, were taken to fulfil Stalin’s vision of massive ‘factory farms.’

 

In the 1930s millions more whom he considered or suspected a threat to the USSR were executed or exiled to Gulag labour camps in remote areas of Siberia or Central Asia, where many also died of disease, malnutrition and exposure.

 

Historians believe up to 20 million people perished as a result of his actions - more than the six million killed during Hitler’s genocide of the Jews.

Gulag

Worked to death: Although millions perished in Siberian Labour camps like this one, the textbook says that Stalin only did this to push through modernisation

 

Now the new teaching manual is attempting to tell a generation of Russian schoolchildren that Stalin acted rationally.

 

One of the authors, Anatoly Utkin, is keener to promote another statistic about Stalin, stressing some 10,000 books in his library had his personal jottings and marks in them.

 

‘Can you tell me of any other leader, an American president, for example, who read 10,000 books?’

Polish victim of Stalin

Starved: A Polish child sent to a camp after the USSR's invasion of Poland following Stalin's pact with Hitler

 

The manual informs teachers that the Great Terror of the 1930s came about because Stalin ‘did not know who would deal the next blow, and for that reason he attacked every known group and movement, as well as those who were not his allies or of his mindset.’

 

It stresses to teachers that ‘it is important to show that Stalin acted in a concrete historical situation’ and that he acted ‘entirely rationally - as the guardian of a system, as a consistent supporter of reshaping the country into an industrialised state.’

 

Editor Alexander Danilov said: ‘We are not defending Stalin. We are just exploring his personality, explaining his motives and showing what he really achieved.’

 

The controversial manual is produced by the country’s leading school book publishers Prosveshenije, a state-supported company that was a monopoly supplier of classroom texts in the Soviet era, and appears to be returning to that role.

 

The company boasts: ‘We are proud that we brought up generations of Soviet people - and today we keep on improving our textbooks.’

 

With close links to the Kremlin, the company’s website states: ‘Prosveshenije remains one of the few effective instruments of national consolidation, a centre of forming and distributing Russian educational values.’

 

The teaching manual could not have been produced without the support and approval of the Russian government.

 

Prominent Russian historian Roy Medvedev dubbed the manual ‘a falsification. Stalin by no means acted rationally all of the time, and many of his actions damaged the country.’

Stalin support

 

Vain: During his reign Stalin also enforced his own cult of personality

 

Before World War II, he said, ‘many in the military ranks were arrested, like my father, for example, and their children, little boys, were sent to the front.’

 

Alexander Kamensky, head of the history department at the Russia State University for the Humanities, said the manual was, ‘sadly,’ a sign that teaching history in schools has become ‘an ideological instrument.’

 

But it seems to echo Putin’s remarks to a group of history teachers in June 2007 when he said while Stalin’s purges were one of the darkest periods of the country’s history, ‘others cannot be allowed to impose a feeling of guilt on us.’

 

An earlier manual called Stalin an ‘effective manager’."

[kevbone]

cult of personality

 

 

 

I love that song.

[bradleym]

nationalism is guaranteed to make us stupid.

[Dechristo]

Stallin' truth.

[ivan]

i had a holocaust survivor speak to my class a couple years ago - she was ukranian - she was sent to auschwitz but lived b/c she spoke several languages and actually wasn't jewish and so the guards used her as a translator - anyway, she was very clear that she hated stalin far more than hitler, based on her memory of the horrible famine that proceeded the war and the way everyone in her village was drafted by stalin, then immediately killed

 

"he who controls the past, controls the future"

[kevino]

Teacher Ivan,

 

What do you teach and what age?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Teacher Ivan,

 

What do you teach and what age?

 

planning to keep your kids away from him?

 

[ivan]

high school social studies - why?

[ivan]

can't a course of action be both rational and incredibly evil?

[billcoe]

i had a holocaust survivor speak to my class a couple years ago - she was ukranian - she was sent to auschwitz but lived b/c she spoke several languages and actually wasn't jewish and so the guards used her as a translator - anyway, she was very clear that she hated stalin far more than hitler, based on her memory of the horrible famine that proceeded the war and the way everyone in her village was drafted by stalin, then immediately killed

 

"he who controls the past, controls the future"

 

I use to work for a Russian and a German Jew. They hired any and all Holocaust survivor that wandered by and was looking for work. No females ever applied, but they routinely had dudes working with tattoos on their arms. So ....unspeakable and horrifying. It gives the incessant complaining and whining about our system of gov't that you see on this site 24/7 seems so inconsequential and pale by comparison.

 

Perspective.

 

Damn I love this country.

[Bug]

The freedom to think independently is what gives the US it's market edge decade after decade. Russia is missing the boat here.

On the other hand.....

Stalin saw the west industrialize, especially the US (how many indians did we kill?) and realized it was the only path to staving off being conquered. His tactics were open and brutal whereas ours were disguised as saving souls and fighting "evil savages" but was also brutal.

He oversaw an incredible industrialization of a huge area and population. Without him, we would probably be speaking German.

But hey, as I have said before, "Happiness is being married to a German."

Rational has nothing to do with relational.

[RJRiha]

The freedom to think independently is what gives the US it's market edge decade after decade. Russia is missing the boat here.

On the other hand.....

Stalin saw the west industrialize, especially the US (how many indians did we kill?) and realized it was the only path to staving off being conquered. His tactics were open and brutal whereas ours were disguised as saving souls and fighting "evil savages" but was also brutal.

He oversaw an incredible industrialization of a huge area and population. Without him, we would probably be speaking German.

But hey, as I have said before, "Happiness is being married to a German."

Rational has nothing to do with relational.

 

That's a ridiculous notion to say that we would probably be speaking German. 1940s military technology would not have been sufficient for Germany to successfully defeat the US on home territory. In fact, it would have been insane for Germany to attack us on home ground with the intent on conquest.

 

The only way we would have been speaking German would have been if the constitutional convention would have declared German the official language. That was historically possible as English only won out by one vote.

[RJRiha]

Trying to keep it all in perspective on what is important to me and us as a country? What is #1 on all of our lists. Freedom. All else follow. Truth would be nice as well. I understand that sometimes you don't get it or it's not entirly correct, we have instances of it in the US for sure, ....but this seems so sad to me.

 

Historical revisionism is pretty common. It was pretty successful here in the good ol' USA with regards to the civil war. Pretty much every school text lists slavery as the reason Abraham Lincoln went to war, whereas reality was a little different. The real reason was to "preserve the union", which brings up a less morally sound debate. This is not to bring up the debate on whether that particular war was just or not, but to the prevalence of historical revisionism.

[STP]

Creepy...

 

bEYfl-X2Jcc

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The freedom to think independently is what gives the US it's market edge decade after decade. Russia is missing the boat here.

On the other hand.....

Stalin saw the west industrialize, especially the US (how many indians did we kill?) and realized it was the only path to staving off being conquered. His tactics were open and brutal whereas ours were disguised as saving souls and fighting "evil savages" but was also brutal.

He oversaw an incredible industrialization of a huge area and population. Without him, we would probably be speaking German.

But hey, as I have said before, "Happiness is being married to a German."

Rational has nothing to do with relational.

 

Equating Stalin's murder of millions to the US-Indian relations is a big pile of bullshit, even for you Bug.

 

Moral relativism:

[bradleym]

Trying to keep it all in perspective on what is important to me and us as a country? What is #1 on all of our lists. Freedom. All else follow. Truth would be nice as well. I understand that sometimes you don't get it or it's not entirly correct, we have instances of it in the US for sure, ....but this seems so sad to me.

 

Historical revisionism is pretty common. It was pretty successful here in the good ol' USA with regards to the civil war. Pretty much every school text lists slavery as the reason Abraham Lincoln went to war, whereas reality was a little different. The real reason was to "preserve the union", which brings up a less morally sound debate. This is not to bring up the debate on whether that particular war was just or not, but to the prevalence of historical revisionism.

 

historical revisionism is normal, natural and healthy. cycle times run from 1-20 years typically. it assists in uncovering the multiplex reasons and causation behind events. sometimes it is political in nature, sometimes it is something else, but in general it is a good thing.

 

I haven't checked in a while, but I wonder if you are correct that 'Pretty much every school text lists slavery as the reason Abraham Lincoln went to war'. I don't think that is true, perhaps not even provable.

[prole]

I haven't checked in a while, but I wonder if you are correct that 'Pretty much every school text lists slavery as the reason Abraham Lincoln went to war'. I don't think that is true, perhaps not even provable.

 

You're sweet.

[kevino]

high school social studies - why?

Just curious. I don't really remember having any good/if any at all speakers like that in HS. However in college some of the memorable classes are when you have speakers come to your class and talk about their first hand experiences with you. Good for you.

[bradleym]

The freedom to think independently is what gives the US it's market edge decade after decade. Russia is missing the boat here.

On the other hand.....

Stalin saw the west industrialize, especially the US (how many indians did we kill?) and realized it was the only path to staving off being conquered. His tactics were open and brutal whereas ours were disguised as saving souls and fighting "evil savages" but was also brutal.

He oversaw an incredible industrialization of a huge area and population. Without him, we would probably be speaking German.

But hey, as I have said before, "Happiness is being married to a German."

Rational has nothing to do with relational.

 

i'd say that Lenin and crew really, really wanted to witness/participate in/lead a marxist revolution and, as it turned out, the ancien regime in Russia was the creakiest one around. problem was, there was no proletariat there to speak of, so once they were in charge they set about a rapid industrialization project.

 

once he was in charge, the brutal and extremely paranoid Stalin turned the volume up a bit, sped up the forced collectivisation and hurried the transformation of the Soviet Union into an industrial power.

 

which was good for them (and the west) in that Soviet industry was enormously helpful in stopping the Nazis. It might have gone even better for the Soviets (and the west), except that Stalin killed off the best officers in the thirties and promoted yes-men and political hacks.

 

but that was ok, because Hitler was a bigger idiot and wouldn't allow his generals to make tactical retreats, but i digress.

 

i think his brutal treatment of his own people was only partly due to watching the west and wanting to industrialize.

 

what was i talking about again?

[Tokogirl]

Perspective is the name of the game when it comes to history.

 

Example: Go to Japan and read some of their text books of WWII and how they were fighting imperialistic powers who were bent on destroying Japanese society. How the Japanese were trying to save the Koreans and "help them" escape from the murderous Americans. None of the atrocities committed by the Japanese are mentioned.

 

It is a part of that freedom that we can freely discuss all these individual perspectives. Only how much reliable information do we get from our media??

[KaskadskyjKozak]

once he was in charge, the brutal and extremely paranoid Stalin turned the volume up a bit, sped up the forced collectivisation and hurried the transformation of the Soviet Union into an industrial power.

 

which was good for them (and the west) in that Soviet industry was enormously helpful in stopping the Nazis.

 

Stalin slaughtered almost all his experienced generals in the late 30's. This left a huge leadership vacuum when Hitler invaded, leaving the Red Army in woeful disarray. They were very luck to have found Zhukov and a few others to save their asses. God job, Uncle Joe!

 

[Bug]

The freedom to think independently is what gives the US it's market edge decade after decade. Russia is missing the boat here.

On the other hand.....

Stalin saw the west industrialize, especially the US (how many indians did we kill?) and realized it was the only path to staving off being conquered. His tactics were open and brutal whereas ours were disguised as saving souls and fighting "evil savages" but was also brutal.

He oversaw an incredible industrialization of a huge area and population. Without him, we would probably be speaking German.

But hey, as I have said before, "Happiness is being married to a German."

Rational has nothing to do with relational.

 

Equating Stalin's murder of millions to the US-Indian relations is a big pile of bullshit, even for you Bug.

 

Moral relativism:

Thank you for your deep insight.

As usual, your anger is all that comes through.

Moral relativism? It all sucks. We just have no right to be all self rightous about our "pure" rise to nationhood. Stalin was a mass murderer. So were many US citizens who spread murder and mayheim amoungst the Native Americans. In 1835 the Steamship St Peter docked at Ft Mandan and unloaded a thousand wool blankets to be distributed amoungst the Mandan Indian. They were the ones who took care of Lewis and Clark their first Winter. The blankets were infected with smallpox. Without going into how long smallpox can live on a blanket in cold weather, the captain of the fort wrote in his journal; "Never has so worthless a lot died so quickly and without casualty amoungst us". 44,000 Mandan died that winter. That was just the start.

You seem to lash out every time I bring up what happened to the indians as though they were not even people and yet talk about the tattoos on Jews goes unassailed (as well it should).

 

Genocide is genocide.

 

I have spent time with people who remember the old days. Their Parents were the ones who survived the "Indian Wars". They are all dead now but their stories were heart wrenching. Not just about how they lost their way of life but the way they were tortured and starved by the US government all the way up into the 1970's.

Unless you are truely ignorant,

you should be ashamed of your callous disregard for their tortures and repression. These were children being tortured to "Rid them of there indian ways".

Ah well.

America doesn't like mirrors they can't control.

It's why we have so much trouble understanding the Arab complaints against us.

As Ivan pointed out, he who controls history, controls the future.

We, the US, will do it again and again.

"They are the axis of evil"

"Weapons of mass destruction"

Lies.

Propaganda.

 

[Bug]

The freedom to think independently is what gives the US it's market edge decade after decade. Russia is missing the boat here.

On the other hand.....

Stalin saw the west industrialize, especially the US (how many indians did we kill?) and realized it was the only path to staving off being conquered. His tactics were open and brutal whereas ours were disguised as saving souls and fighting "evil savages" but was also brutal.

He oversaw an incredible industrialization of a huge area and population. Without him, we would probably be speaking German.

But hey, as I have said before, "Happiness is being married to a German."

Rational has nothing to do with relational.

 

That's a ridiculous notion to say that we would probably be speaking German. 1940s military technology would not have been sufficient for Germany to successfully defeat the US on home territory. In fact, it would have been insane for Germany to attack us on home ground with the intent on conquest.

 

The only way we would have been speaking German would have been if the constitutional convention would have declared German the official language. That was historically possible as English only won out by one vote.

Without an industrialized Soviet Union, Germany would have rolled over Russia without incident.

They would then have had the resources we had and the manpower to launch a whole different scenario. The 40's would have been history before we were invaded. Germany would have done in Russia what Stalin did. Then your arguement falls apart.

[STP]

Z-zRtT5jPLA

[ivan]

high school social studies - why?

Just curious. I don't really remember having any good/if any at all speakers like that in HS. However in college some of the memorable classes are when you have speakers come to your class and talk about their first hand experiences with you. Good for you.

you'd like my "history of war" elective then - i have several quest speakers a month, from 90 year old ww2 fighter pilots to 19 year old former students and now current army rangers back from afghanistan

 

my favorite was when one fool fell asleep during a new jersey vietnam vet's visit - the vet's name was lou - he was blown up by a malfunction artillery shell in the midst of a firefight and seriously mangled - he's in a a wheel chair now and still plenty scarred 40 years later - nonplussed by the kid, he tore into him w/ a vengeance, beating the kid's desk w/ his cane and shouting "i didn't get blown the fuck up so you can sleep through my fucking story, kid!" the kid sat bolt upright, beat red, for the next half hour.