Tap National Oil Reserves

[akhalteke]

yes, he is more of a hero than the guy doing requisitioning. duh.

 

 

 

So it's about suffering then? The "hero meter" is driven by how much blood you give, and spill. Is that it? The guy doing requisitioning followed his orders as dutifully as McCain. So did the foot soldier who was lucky enough to not get captured by the VC. But they're not quite as "heroic", is that what you mean?

 

He followed his orders in the most dire of circumstances. No-one can say they would have the balls to do the same in those circumstances.

[canyondweller]

McCain spent 5 years being tortured. That should disqualify him "mentally" from being president right off the bat…… And why is he for torture today if he got tortured? What an idiot.

 

Lack of respect for military heroes is something I'll never understand...

 

...nor the urge to support any use of the military the government sees fit, lest one appear to be unpatriotic.

 

No, the two are not even linked. Displaying respect for a man who suffered what killed lesser men has nothing to do with politics, but an appreciation for emerging from a horrifying experience unbroken. Years ago, we used to call it "having manners." Now, the kids today call it "old fashioned."

[StevenSeagal]

 

He followed his orders in the most dire of circumstances. No-one can say they would have the balls to do the same in those circumstances.

 

I agree. People are capable of amazing things when they are put into true survival mode. You and I can't fairly speculate what others, or even ourselves, would do. Everyone has a different coping mechanism but it comes down to survival. In any case, it does not surprise me that a soldier being held prisoner would cling onto his training and code of honor as a means to keep his shit together, even if survival was uncertain.

 

Surely McCain surviving what he did says something about his character and will. On the other hand, the fact that he is- as is Obama- a politician, also says something about his character. And that concerns me much more than his demonstrated fortitude in battle 40 years ago might have impressed me.

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

He could have gone home early but chose to stay behind with his comrades despite the huge personal cost, for one thing. Quit being so fucking contrarian (the only other possibility is that you're stupid, but only Kevbone sinks to this depth of mental retardation).

 

So your analysis is that if I have a different view on the matter, I'm either egging you on (), or I'm stupid. That's deep, Einstein.

 

But I'm glad that I'm still above kevbone on the food chain.

[akhalteke]

 

He followed his orders in the most dire of circumstances. No-one can say they would have the balls to do the same in those circumstances.

 

I agree. People are capable of amazing things when they are put into true survival mode. You and I can't fairly speculate what others, or even ourselves, would do. Everyone has a different coping mechanism but it comes down to survival. In any case, it does not surprise me that a soldier being held prisoner would cling onto his training and code of honor as a means to keep his shit together, even if survival was uncertain.

 

Surely McCain surviving what he did says something about his character and will. On the other hand, the fact that he is- as is Obama- a politician, also says something about his character. And that concerns me much more than his demonstrated fortitude in battle 40 years ago might have impressed me.

 

 

Not survival; Survival with honor intact. There is a huge difference.

[StevenSeagal]

Fair enough. Though I'd reiterate that simply by entering politics, one nearly relinquishes their honor and starts fresh.

 

Since we're on the subject. John Kerry- who by the way I think would have been a shitty president (but with GW as the alternative, an improvement)- had his presidential campaign hugely undermined by the Swift Boat thing. Now here's a guy who volunteered for combat in Vietnam, and one way or another appeared to have sustained injuries. The Bush people brilliantly orchestrated a story that would have us believe that Kerry deviously and with forethought planned out his whole tour of duty in 'Nam so that 40 years in the future he'd be a war hero and a shoe-in to the White House. You want to attack the guy on his politics and on modern issues, fine. But apparently in some instances it's honorable to attack a guy's military service record, as much as it's acceptable to trot it out as a virtue, if it wins you an election. Some say there was no honor in his criticism of the Vietnam War after the fact; if there's one thing I do believe it's that the opinion of a soldier about a particular conflict, who has been on the ground in that conflict, has some weight to it, even if you don't agree with that assessment. Just like Iraq, there were a lot of soldiers who thought what we were doing over there was totally bogus. Kerry was a poor candidate, but I think this issue lost him the election as much as anything- that and his lack of response to it.

 

 

Soldiers who speak against their orders are called "traitors" and "cowards", while those who obey are called "honorable". Civilians are called "unpatriotic" and "unsupportive of the troops" if they don't support the government's policies and deployment of the troops. You're a soldier, right? So with all this bullying and stigmata built into the social structure of how we view the place of our military in our society, where is the accountability for our presidents and congressional leaders? Seems like soldiers and civilians alike have surrendered their voices to give free reign to these people to pursue whatever selfish ends they may deem fit irregardless of the carnage, and with all of us living in dutiful complicity.

 

 

 

[glassgowkiss]

McCain spent 5 years being tortured. That should disqualify him "mentally" from being president right off the bat…… And why is he for torture today if he got tortured? What an idiot.

 

Lack of respect for military heroes is something I'll never understand...

and running out of fuel and ditching a plane during the exercise and being able to fly again is something i don't understand. unless your daddy is a general...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

and running out of fuel and ditching a plane during the exercise and being able to fly again is something i don't understand. unless your daddy is a general...

 

Ясно! Бо ти ніц не розумієш, крім того, ссати російські хуї!

 

[billcoe]

Fair enough. Though I'd reiterate that simply by entering politics, one nearly relinquishes their honor and starts fresh.

 

Since we're on the subject. John Kerry- who by the way I think would have been a shitty president (but with GW as the alternative, an improvement)- had his presidential campaign hugely undermined by the Swift Boat thing. Now here's a guy who volunteered for combat in Vietnam, and one way or another appeared to have sustained injuries. The Bush people brilliantly orchestrated a story that would have us believe that Kerry deviously and with forethought planned out his whole tour of duty in 'Nam so that 40 years in the future he'd be a war hero and a shoe-in to the White House. You want to attack the guy on his politics and on modern issues, fine. But apparently in some instances it's honorable to attack a guy's military service record, as much as it's acceptable to trot it out as a virtue, if it wins you an election. Some say there was no honor in his criticism of the Vietnam War after the fact; if there's one thing I do believe it's that the opinion of a soldier about a particular conflict, who has been on the ground in that conflict, has some weight to it, even if you don't agree with that assessment. Just like Iraq, there were a lot of soldiers who thought what we were doing over there was totally bogus. Kerry was a poor candidate, but I think this issue lost him the election as much as anything- that and his lack of response to it.

 

 

Soldiers who speak against their orders are called "traitors" and "cowards", while those who obey are called "honorable". Civilians are called "unpatriotic" and "unsupportive of the troops" if they don't support the government's policies and deployment of the troops. You're a soldier, right? So with all this bullying and stigmata built into the social structure of how we view the place of our military in our society, where is the accountability for our presidents and congressional leaders? Seems like soldiers and civilians alike have surrendered their voices to give free reign to these people to pursue whatever selfish ends they may deem fit irregardless of the carnage, and with all of us living in dutiful complicity.

 

 

 

That's a great rant SS, I gotta disagree though on a couple of points. 1st, you say Kerry was a bad candidate. Kerry was the better dude. The Bush assholes tore McCain an asshole or 3 during the primaries with the same shit as well: and its bullshit and doesn't make him a "bad" candidate IMO. I voted for Kerry primarily based on how the POS that hid under his bed and his fathers skirts let that political debasement via the swift boaters happen. ONE Swift boater, a lifelong Republican and a fella from my state, came out during the election and testified that HE was the Green Beret that Kerry pulled out of the water while under intense fire, and that he'd never seen any of those other MFers clamoring that Kerry was something other than what he was, which was pretty dam courageous on Kerrys part IMO. That he stepped forward and tried to stop an injustice only proved the truth of it to me. So it seemed clear that voting for Kerry was the best thing...to me.

Next, I do not believe that one nearly relinquishes their honor by merely entering politics. I suspect the opposite. Usually folks get in due to the desire to effect positive change. The whirlwind of Washington sucks up many and tosses them into reverse mode, and it does seem like the presidential candidates still fit your statement. Yet many congressmen and senators do not. They are there to fight the good fight for truth and justice. Later, they become Ted Stevens - and they should be tossed out before they are tired old hags trading favors like Ted Kennedy, Robert Byrd or John Stennis IMO. Too bad they are not.

 

Good rant though. I think that the reality is that we owe those who step forward and put the pedal to the metal and their lives at risk as a gift to all of US a huge debt, and it doesn't lesson as we complain about the leadership directing the bus off the road, but is an even more important and significant debt in that circumstance IMO.

 

McCain did something back then which most of us would and probably could NEVER do, and that is to tell his jailers to FUCK OFF. He spit into their faces, some of the meanest son of a bitches around, when they were offering to release him alone, and not the others who were more deserving. It was heroic by any measure or definition of the word in any country or any century. DAMN HEROIC. Both of these men can do a passable job of running the country. One has proven his will in the crucible that none of us can fathom. The other is damn smart and likable. Both have big negative issues as well.

 

Tough call in my opinion. Good luck, I suspect we will chose one of them!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Fair enough. Though I'd reiterate that simply by entering politics, one nearly relinquishes their honor and starts fresh.

 

Since we're on the subject. John Kerry- who by the way I think would have been a shitty president (but with GW as the alternative, an improvement)- had his presidential campaign hugely undermined by the Swift Boat thing. Now here's a guy who volunteered for combat in Vietnam, and one way or another appeared to have sustained injuries. The Bush people brilliantly orchestrated a story that would have us believe that Kerry deviously and with forethought planned out his whole tour of duty in 'Nam so that 40 years in the future he'd be a war hero and a shoe-in to the White House. You want to attack the guy on his politics and on modern issues, fine. But apparently in some instances it's honorable to attack a guy's military service record, as much as it's acceptable to trot it out as a virtue, if it wins you an election. Some say there was no honor in his criticism of the Vietnam War after the fact; if there's one thing I do believe it's that the opinion of a soldier about a particular conflict, who has been on the ground in that conflict, has some weight to it, even if you don't agree with that assessment. Just like Iraq, there were a lot of soldiers who thought what we were doing over there was totally bogus. Kerry was a poor candidate, but I think this issue lost him the election as much as anything- that and his lack of response to it.

 

 

Soldiers who speak against their orders are called "traitors" and "cowards", while those who obey are called "honorable". Civilians are called "unpatriotic" and "unsupportive of the troops" if they don't support the government's policies and deployment of the troops. You're a soldier, right? So with all this bullying and stigmata built into the social structure of how we view the place of our military in our society, where is the accountability for our presidents and congressional leaders? Seems like soldiers and civilians alike have surrendered their voices to give free reign to these people to pursue whatever selfish ends they may deem fit irregardless of the carnage, and with all of us living in dutiful complicity.

 

 

 

That's a great rant SS, I gotta disagree though on a couple of points. 1st, you say Kerry was a bad candidate. Kerry was the better dude. The Bush assholes tore McCain an asshole or 3 during the primaries with the same shit as well: and its bullshit and doesn't make him a "bad" candidate IMO. I voted for Kerry primarily based on how the POS that hid under his bed and his fathers skirts let that political debasement via the swift boaters happen. ONE Swift boater, a lifelong Republican and a fella from my state, came out during the election and testified that HE was the Green Beret that Kerry pulled out of the water while under intense fire, and that he'd never seen any of those other MFers clamoring that Kerry was something other than what he was, which was pretty dam courageous on Kerrys part IMO. That he stepped forward and tried to stop an injustice only proved the truth of it to me. So it seemed clear that voting for Kerry was the best thing...to me.

Next, I do not believe that one nearly relinquishes their honor by merely entering politics. I suspect the opposite. Usually folks get in due to the desire to effect positive change. The whirlwind of Washington sucks up many and tosses them into reverse mode, and it does seem like the presidential candidates still fit your statement. Yet many congressmen and senators do not. They are there to fight the good fight for truth and justice. Later, they become Ted Stevens - and they should be tossed out before they are tired old hags trading favors like Ted Kennedy, Robert Byrd or John Stennis IMO. Too bad they are not.

 

Good rant though. I think that the reality is that we owe those who step forward and put the pedal to the metal and their lives at risk as a gift to all of US a huge debt, and it doesn't lesson as we complain about the leadership directing the bus off the road, but is an even more important and significant debt in that circumstance IMO.

 

McCain did something back then which most of us would and probably could NEVER do, and that is to tell his jailers to FUCK OFF. He spit into their faces, some of the meanest son of a bitches around, when they were offering to release him alone, and not the others who were more deserving. It was heroic by any measure or definition of the word in any country or any century. DAMN HEROIC. Both of these men can do a passable job of running the country. One has proven his will in the crucible that none of us can fathom. The other is damn smart and likable. Both have big negative issues as well.

 

Tough call in my opinion. Good luck, I suspect we will chose one of them!

 

Fuck! I was hoping we could write in "none of the above" and start over with new candidates.

[akhalteke]

John Kerry was a dirtbag; not because of what he did in Vietnam but what he did after he got back. He made a major taboo and veterans made him pay for it. I think that attacking his Vietnam record was out of line and that his post-Vietnam activities whould have been the focus.

 

We haven't had a good presidential candidate in a looooooooooooooooooong time. Shits gotta change because this is not change I can believe in.

[kevbone]

McCain spent 5 years being tortured. That should disqualify him "mentally" from being president right off the bat…… And why is he for torture today if he got tortured? What an idiot.

 

Lack of respect for military heroes is something I'll never understand...

 

 

How the fuck you get that I am disrespecting him? I totally respect any service man or woman who volunteers for our military. (Yes that includes Scott)…..respecting ones service and thinking they are fit to be commander and chief are worlds apart bro.

 

Is McCane a hero? If he wanted to show his true colors he would “pull out”…..just like Bush Sr. should have done.

 

[mattp]

Nice post, Bill. Most of the time, those who proclaim "all politicians suck" or "government is not the answer" or "corporations are evil," are tossing about slogans that largely amount to an excuse not to actually think about something.

 

I think you are right about how politicians often start out with some integrity and laudable goals that can get hijacked as their political career unfolds. Certainly, those attracted to and who do well in politics may have certain traits such as an ability to speak out of both sides of their mouth at the same time and an inclination to seek power or attention, but I'm betting both Obama and McCain at least started out thinking they were trying to do something positive.

 

Having said that, I share some of your cynicism at this point - certainly Obama has proven himself willing to pander to the masses just as McCain has. Take this oil reserves idea for example: why the hell would we tap into what are held for a serious national emergency just for a short term bump in oil prices? But McCain? The gas tax holiday was completely nutty and the suggestion that normal Americans other than stock holders will benefit from granting more opportunities to American oil companies is just plain stupid.

[canyondweller]

McCain spent 5 years being tortured. That should disqualify him "mentally" from being president right off the bat…… And why is he for torture today if he got tortured? What an idiot.

 

Lack of respect for military heroes is something I'll never understand...

and running out of fuel and ditching a plane during the exercise and being able to fly again is something i don't understand. unless your daddy is a general...

 

Sorta like running away from your home country and then bashing your host country? Like that?

[billcoe]

Nice post, Bill. Most of the time, those who proclaim "all politicians suck" or "government is not the answer" or "corporations are evil," are tossing about slogans that largely amount to an excuse not to actually think about something.

 

I think you are right about how politicians often start out with some integrity and laudable goals that can get hijacked as their political career unfolds. Certainly, those attracted to and do well in politics in the first place may have certain traits such as an ability to speak out of both sides of their mouth at the same time and an inclination to seek power or attention, but I'm betting both Obama and McCain at least started out thinking they were trying to do something positive.

 

Having said that, I share some of your cynicism at this point - certainly Obama has proven himself willing to pander to the masses just as McCain has. Take this oil reserves idea for example: why the hell would we tap into what are held for a serious national emergency just for a short term bump in oil prices? But McCain? The gas tax holiday was completely nutty and the suggestion that normal Americans other than stock holders will benefit from granting more opportunities to American oil companies is just plain stupid.

 

Whoooo! we agree Matt, the world is upside down:-).

 

Scott, the issue divided our country. There was a very large group of veterans who were outspoken against that war. They believed that it was a worthless endeavor that was needlessly killing civilians and young Americans.

 

Regardless of ones opinion of the war, (this thread is taking a U-turn here I think) it took courage for Kerry to go to war, when many his generation were going to Canada, getting some kind of deferment, faking an illness to get a 4f rating, or getting their parents to pull some political strings to get excused from service or get in the National Guard so as get stateside only service.

 

Then it took more courage to speak out and tell what he thought was the truth upon his return. The Bush machine chewed him up and all but painted him as a traitor, it did the same thing to John McCain in the primary. You'd have thought McCain had started working for the vietnamese from some of the inference of the Bush attacks.

 

And thats wrong that we didn't call bullshit both times on that crap. I appreciated and respected how Obama resisted getting sucked into name calling during the primary against Hillary, it will be interesting to see if he can keep that up as the election gets closer.

 

My opinion anyway. Your results will vary of course.

 

Take care all!

 

[StevenSeagal]

That's a great rant SS, I gotta disagree though on a couple of points. 1st, you say Kerry was a bad candidate. Kerry was the better dude.

 

Oh I agree with you on this point- Kerry was much preferable to Bush- but for some other reasons I also don't think he would have been a particularly good president. And he wasn't a very good candidate, obviously, since he allowed the Rove machine to tear him to pieces without really putting up an effective response- this is one thing that Obama has mostly managed to do and largely take the high ground in doing so.

 

And I think it's a damn shame that Kerry lost the election less on his modern politics, or even his post war criticism, but on a smear campaign regarding his military service record while active in Vietnam.

 

Next, I do not believe that one nearly relinquishes their honor by merely entering politics. I suspect the opposite. Usually folks get in due to the desire to effect positive change. The whirlwind of Washington sucks up many and tosses them into reverse mode, and it does seem like the presidential candidates still fit your statement. Yet many congressmen and senators do not. They are there to fight the good fight for truth and justice. Later, they become Ted Stevens - and they should be tossed out before they are tired old hags trading favors like Ted Kennedy, Robert Byrd or John Stennis IMO. Too bad they are not.

 

I sort of agree with you here, but then again, the phrase "nice guys finish last" just about sums up American politics. There are notable examples of congressman and women who have maintained their integrity- good on them. But to be president in this country- seems to have come to require that one be an expert in double talk, shifting values, pandering, and raising insane amounts of funding. While there's a lot I appreciate about Obama, he's a great example of how good intentions have to be morphed into all out douchery in order to advance one's political power in this country. While I wouldn't discourage someone with good and honest intentions from believing they can change things by entering politics, really who among us cannot see that nice guys won't get very far? I believe that Obama and McCain both have a fairly high level of integrity compared to more recent presidents, but I don't believe either of them entered politics with wide eyed naivity that they'd be able to keep their values iron-clad.

 

In the end I think either candidate will be an improvement on what we have "enjoyed" the past 8 years, but it remains hard for me to get excited about any candidate produced by an inherently corrupt structure.

:yep,cynicism, but not necessarily apathy, mattp:

 

[billcoe]

smear campaign regarding his military service

 

Thats the word I was searching for! Rove did it to McCain as well, this smear campaign, and it was brilliant that it succeeded yet still bullshit both times. Why the other voters gave that crap a pass is something I still wonder about.

[kevbone]

Why the other voters gave that crap a pass is something I still wonder about.

 

Yes Bill....I wonder about the south as well....

[billcoe]

Why the other voters gave that crap a pass is something I still wonder about.

 

Yes Bill....I wonder about the south as well....

 

I'm not connecting that statement.....what am I missing?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Why the other voters gave that crap a pass is something I still wonder about.

 

Yes Bill....I wonder about the south as well....

 

I'm not connecting that statement.....what am I missing?

 

Boner thinks the "South" and all its residents are dumb. Pretty funny coming from a guy with an IQ about 3 sigmas below the mean on the old Gaussian distribution.

[pink]

[billcoe]

[glassgowkiss]

Sorta like running away from your home country and then bashing your host country? Like that?

 

no- bashing intolerant asswipes like yourself. when i moved here 20 years ago i have never heard dushbags like yourself saying to go back to where i came from. as the matter of fact i remember very fondly people from NY state. and i don't have to like every friggin policy, particularly of this administration, which btw is the most pro- communist administration since WWII. not only running the economy like a personal piggy bank, but mind you going hand in hand with communist regimes of china and newly resurrected soviet union 2.

the story about mcsame is he run out of fuel during a routine exercise. now, under normal circumstances a pilot like that would never fly a fighter fighter jet again. i know this story from someone who served with mcsame in one unit when it happened. he lives neaqr Carbondale Colorado and his first name is Ned. This is a completly legit story and it can be cofirmed. of course i would assume that his continuing career in the military as a jet pilot has something to do with mcsame's dad being a general?

and don't expect me being nice to you, since you are openly hostile to immirants.

[Dechristo]

...don't expect me being nice to you, since you are openly hostile to immirants.

 

you should expect some hostility in response to your rants.

[glassgowkiss]

...don't expect me being nice to you, since you are openly hostile to immirants.

 

you should expect some hostility in response to your rants.

no my rants are in response to hostility. since i live, pay taxes and vote in this country i am in title to my own opinions.