Iraq

[billcoe]

I have a personal story I want to share with you.

[rob]

I would think it would be IDIOTIC to knowingly sign up to go fight and possible die.

 

What about people who signed up to fight in WWII? Were they idiotic? Just curious.

 

And if you believe in the cause……whatever that is….then I believe you’re an idiot.

 

This is just another way of saying, "if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot."

[kevbone]

 

What about people who signed up to fight in WWII? Were they idiotic? Just curious.

 

 

No I don’t think they are idiots. That was a war….this is different.

 

 

This is just another way of saying, "if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot."

 

Come on Rob…..you think that is a new idea here on cc.com. Just look at most of KKK’s posts.

 

[billcoe]

I admit that I was angry when we ran in and attacked fait acompli like Leroy Jenkins on the video game. Stupid and in bad form for international agreements and stupid to ignore the rest of the world. Damn dumb. Poor form. But that was then, and this is now. We already spent the money and the lives and are now so close, that we need to finish the job then get out is my thought. What Scott said is on the money: it's not Vietnam and it's not WW2.

 

-true Story-

 

This happened to me personally, this isn't a slanted news report - no extra elaboration is added or needed, it is truth, really happened. I'll tell it like it happened.

 

I was down at my local park, 1/2 a block from my home, approx mid 1990's. There was a small group of bronzed skinned dark-haired middle-eastern looking men, @10 or so, playing on the deep green well mowed grass with a soccer ball, messing around. I did not know their country of origin, and the language was not familiar to me. I crowded closer, now interested. Paying closer attention, I would have guessed they were Turks, but I knew they were not. Perhaps Aremenians? I thought not, but had never been to Armenia and was not positive.

 

I spotted a younger white American chick, sort of a hippy looking gal with the group, so as is my personal custom, I went right up and asked. "Hi, I'm curious, where are these guys from?".

 

"They are Kurds", she replies, "from Iraq".

 

Hmmm, we'd just been overthere in 1991 fighting a war. "Why are they here in the US", I ask, raising an eyebrow.

 

"They had worked for the US government", she said.

 

"Why are they here?" i asked.

 

"If they stayed there their lives would be at risk. As it is, they are afraid that their families over there may be suffering now for their choices." She responded.

 

"CIA?", I bluntly suggested.

 

"I can't say, I'm just sort of a liaison to help them around over here", she replys.

 

I figure CIA for sure.

 

I'm standing there checking them out, being ignored by the dudes, when she says: " Yeah, some of them have had it pretty tough"............see that guy over there", she nods her head in the direction of an older man, maybe 40, maybe 60 year old fella somberly standing off to the side and not participating in the game. "He was in his village when an Iraqi government plane flew over..........dumping poisonous gas down......, almost everybody in his village was killed: .... including all of his family and friends,.......... he and a very few others in the village had gas masks ........... and they survived".

 

"Jesus Christ" I quietly whistled through my teeth, thinking I couldn't imagine what it would be like to see all of my loved ones gassed to death right in front of me, and to survive with that memory. We were done talking. I watched and marveled in sadness and sober silence for a few minutes, wondering what other horrors these guys had witnessed, then walked away silently, carrying that sad memory to this day.

 

So this is what I think, and no amount of articals and blathering opinions will change my mind unless they start presenting facts and not inuendos: Cause I know some facts...personally.

 

Fuck Saddam Hussein that evil fucking bastard, we should have killed that motherfucker every day for eternity may he rot in hell being sodomised daily sans vasoline by the Devil himself that lying murdering son of a bitch.

 

I think that the loved ones of those Kurds and also the Shia massacred in the south of Iraq whom are still being uncovered in mass unmarked graves would have a different opinion than you apparently do. Do you not believe Israel was next on that crazy pricks tick list of neighbors to attack? Sadamm routinely paid off the families of suicide bombers who killed civilians - $10,000 a pop. Each time. The 1/2 a million or so Jews not gassed in the next attack will hopefully live lives of quiet peace because of our countries actions.

 

To those who want to deflect the discussion by thinking that this is intellectual blather of substance:(it isn't, it is just stupidity) by saying "yeah, but what about the US actions is WW2 dropping the bomb, we're horrible people", or why did we allow the Rwanda slaughters to occur, we're such horrible people", to you I say: STFU YOU SIDESTEPPING FUCKING IGNORANT WUSSY WANKING IDIOTS.

 

Those are another discussion altogether, for a different place and time.

[billcoe]

Take care all, life is an eyeblink.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I would think it would be IDIOTIC to knowingly sign up to go fight and possible die.

 

What about people who signed up to fight in WWII? Were they idiotic? Just curious.

 

Kevbone, is anything worth dying for? Not your family I mean, but something larger or further removed from your day-to-day life?

 

I don't see the case for going to Iraq to fight much differently than the case for going to Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, or any number of places/wars in our history. Even WWI. Go to a foreign shore for some dubious political goal with no clear unambiguous gain at the end. The only thing clear is the cost and the body count.

 

Iraq is not an atypical war, nor a disaster; it's par for the course. Surely people of good conscience can argue against our involvement there, but shitting on our military and taking extreme stands calling everyone an idiot with whom you disagree is not one.

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Come on Rob…..you think that is a new idea here on cc.com. Just look at most of KKK’s posts.

 

I call you an idiot because you are one.

 

Rob disagrees with me on a lot of issues, but he is certainly not an idiot.

[kevbone]

taking extreme stands calling everyone an idiot with whom you disagree is not one.

 

Kettle....meet pot....pot....meet kettle.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

taking extreme stands calling everyone an idiot with whom you disagree is not one.

 

Kettle....meet pot....pot....meet kettle.

 

You're not "everyone". You're noone.

[jmace]

That seems pretty presumptive. I believe the war is wrong, and that we got into it based on lies, and I suspect there is an alterior motive behind this whole thing.

 

Whats the alterior motive ?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

That seems pretty presumptive. I believe the war is wrong, and that we got into it based on lies, and I suspect there is an alterior motive behind this whole thing.

 

Whats the alterior motive ?

 

A geopolitical strategy. One that you can profoundly disagree with, and I would respect that.

 

[Stefan]

The entirety of my actions on this post are to point out something that maybe you have overlooked and possibly open up the possiblity that finishing this out is not such a bad idea after all.

 

Finishing this Iraq thing is not a good idea. It became apparently a bad idea to me when the terrorists where doing and continue to use those bombs in civilian areas and against the military. Obviously the terrorists needed places to sleep, eat, and crap. It meant they were living "somewhere". And that "somewhere" was in civilian houses. If they were in civilian houses, and the neighbors knew, then what it meant was the the communities where these terrorists were at were supporting them. Even aquiescence is support. If the community was supporting terrorists in some way, then obviously the US was not wanted by those in the community.

 

Let the Iraqi people decide their own path.

 

Then I have had to ask myself when this thing goes to civil war, is that genocide? If it was genocide would I support stopping it?

[No. 13 Baby]

you guys are great about wringing your hands at the world's injustices but never want to get said hands dirty.

 

Ironically, there is an entire chapter devoted to this concept in The Chickenhawk Manifesto.

[scott_harpell]

War is ugly.

 

We only see this now because of technology. Anyone remember CNN broadcasting the first invasion? Awe inspiring. No-one had seen anything like it.

 

There has never been a war that was pure; that was ideologically sound. The decision to go to war rests heavy on those who have to call their nations' sons, brothers, friends and fathers to war.

 

I made a decision to be a soldier for my country; the best I could be. I did not do so because of 9/11; I did not do so because I believe in a war, or any war for that matter. I did it because I love this country with all its faults and idiosyncracies.

 

I have lived all over the world and love this country enough that I decided that I would commit to stand up for those that wish this country harm.

 

It is not my decision where to go or what to do when I get there. I am just a willing conduit that hopes and prays that his government is making the right decisions.

 

It is foolish to question such things while fighting an enemy ideologically bent to destroy you. You must fight for your life, the lives of your friends and more importantly your country. To let doubt cloud your mind at that instant is to resign to death.

 

I think about politics while I am here. I cannot do it when I head out to a place where people want to kill based upon my ethnicity, my citizenship and the religion they assume I subscribe to.

 

Kevbone, you say this is not a war. Why is it not a war? because the enemy doesn't follow the geneva conventions? Because they hid amoungst children to sheild their fire? Because they believe that they are doing God's will?

 

This is war. It is ugly and it is necessary. Violence is a necessity to combat extreem greed and violence. I know that you would like to think that we are past that.

 

We, may be past that, but some are not and that is the reason that there must be people ready to stand up to those that wish to visit harm upon the innocent; if nothing less than a deterrant.

 

Truth be told, I would love to go to Africa. There are horrible attrocities that are perpetrated there every day. Problem is this: There is no money to fund any reconstruction and there aren't good rulers ready to accept a democratic rule. It would be wrong to go somewhere and oust a dictator only to let another one be swept into the position by the power vacuum that we created.

 

We have done it before and I hope that we have learned from our mistakes.

 

We helped Afghanistan get free from the USSR and let the oppressive rule of militants take over. I hope very much that you understand that we need to stay in Iraq to finish our mission in order to make sure that we dont let another genocidal leader take reigns from the last one.

 

That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

you guys are great about wringing your hands at the world's injustices but never want to get said hands dirty.

 

Ironically, there is an entire chapter devoted to this concept in The Chickenhawk Manifesto.

 

Hey, you're diverting your precious time from your investigative reporting on the latest on Larry Craig. We're awaiting the next update with bated breath. Really.

 

Not to mention that you're not devoting adequate time to finishing up you GED so you can get a real education somewhere reputable.

 

And of course, there's that whole climbing thing. You know, the purpose of this site, which seems to elude you completely.

 

 

[sirwoofalot]

There is no disputing SH had WMD. It was clearly reported that he used them on his own people. We just never found them or we did and never reported it.

Pre Iraqi invasion using intelligence collected under President Clinton shows SH had WMD.

 

I am guessing it is like this.

All country leaders are puppets of the true power brokers.

SH was someone’s puppet.

 

That someone, whoever they are, got the WMD removed from Iraqi and sent to Iran.

 

 

[scott_harpell]

The entirety of my actions on this post are to point out something that maybe you have overlooked and possibly open up the possiblity that finishing this out is not such a bad idea after all.

 

Finishing this Iraq thing is not a good idea. It became apparently a bad idea to me when the terrorists where doing and continue to use those bombs in civilian areas and against the military. Obviously the terrorists needed places to sleep, eat, and crap. It meant they were living "somewhere". And that "somewhere" was in civilian houses. If they were in civilian houses, and the neighbors knew, then what it meant was the the communities where these terrorists were at were supporting them. Even aquiescence is support. If the community was supporting terrorists in some way, then obviously the US was not wanted by those in the community.

 

Let the Iraqi people decide their own path.

 

Then I have had to ask myself when this thing goes to civil war, is that genocide? If it was genocide would I support stopping it?

 

You are over simplifying the matter. The political-religious climate in Iraq is mind boggling. Promises are made that certain factions will be protected and others will be targeted in order to get the necessary silence.

 

The militants are using the hatred of the varying factions to get citizens to comply. This is extrememly similar to the goings on in WWII in eastern europe.

 

This is a very complex region and simple one paragraph answers, or one sentence answers (in the case of Kevbone) will not come anywhere near to describing what is going on over there.

[No. 13 Baby]

[rant, rant, rant!]

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

I figured that's all you could muster, you little worm.

 

[jmace]

A geopolitical strategy

 

is that a good thing for Americans ?

[Hugh Conway]

If it weren't mired in hypocricy? Possibly.

 

Most complex opinions have some level of hypocrisy.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

A geopolitical strategy

 

is that a good thing for Americans ?

 

We've tried it both ways several times (isolationism versus meddling abroad). Seems to me we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and it's always going to be a mixed bag, with lots of arm-chair quarterbacking, and supposedly 20/20 hindsight.

Personally I lean much more towards isolationism.

[scott_harpell]

If it weren't mired in hypocricy? Possibly.

 

Most complex opinions have some level of hypocrisy.

 

You must be as complex as nuclear physics then cheif.

[Hugh Conway]

If it weren't mired in hypocricy? Possibly.

 

Most complex opinions have some level of hypocrisy.

 

You must be as complex as nuclear physics then cheif.

 

couldn't figure out boolean algebra?

[scott_harpell]

I figured I would help out Kevbone. He is having enough trouble keeping up.