Loose Bolts

[MarkMcJizzy]

There is A LOT of misinformation floating around here.

 

Sobo:

 

You are correct that some bolts require a hole not be too deep. Those are typically referred to as "drop in anchors", and are seldom used in a rock climbing situation. The Petzl Long Life is not such an anchor. Petzl does not make any cautions about a hole being too deep. The Long Life is very similar to the very common Zamac type nail drive which are placed by the pallet on commercial job sites.

 

The Mammut anchor you own sounds very similar to an "drop in". The other drill you describe sounds like an old Star Dryv-in self driller. These disappeared years ago, because they required hand drilling to place, something not viable on a job site.

 

Dru:

 

No manufacturer warns against holes being too deep for any wedge or "five piece' type anchor I am aware of. I think that here again you are spouting out your ass, like you are wont to do.

 

Mister E:

 

You are correct that American opinion is turning against wedge anchors. Why? I find it interesting that Petzl makes wedge anchors specifically for their customer base.

 

Peter Puget:

 

I believe that you are totally correct in your counseling against using epoxy of any sort with a mechanical anchor. Although I can't find it, Climbing circa 1991 had a very good study in which a PE explained what not to do to anchors. caulking them in, in any way, was highly discouraged.

 

RuMR:

 

People here should just shut up, and take your opinion on this stuff as gospel. You are always correct. That's why you're an engineer huh?

 

 

When epoxying bolts into concrete, not only do you want the hole smooth-sided, you want it as smooth as you can get it, and then you clean it out with flowing water and dry it with compressed air.

 

I have never done, seen, or heard of anyone cleaning an epoxy anchor with water. I have placed literally thousands of these, all with inspections, and find the statement unfathomable. Is there a new method favored?

 

Prior to injection of adhesive into the drilled hole, dust should be removed from the drilled holes using oil free compressed air and a nylon brush

 

Here is my .02.

 

I have placed over 30 bolts. Both by hand and with a power drill. Here is my take on answering a few of the misconceptions floating around here.

 

Hole depth:

In some cases hole depth is pertinant to the integrity of the hole. HOWEVER.... modern bolts like this are less common (and far more expensive) than the equivalent to the typical epoxy or expansion wedges. Old stardrive, ,and mashhead bolts required a specific depth to be set properly.

 

Modern expansion wedge bolts do NOT require a specific depth, and as a matter of fact, if you have a power drill at hand, you should actually drill the same depth as the length of the bolt, so if the bolt is bad (bends or hits a soft spot) you can bury the bolt, and hide the hole.

Obviously hand drilling you stop drilling as soon as possible.

 

If it was indeed an sleeve wedge style expansion bolt (a la fixe or redhead) I would suspect the wrong size bit was being used. a 10mm bit is close enough to look correct, and will sometimes even hold the bolt enough to appear good. The bolt can blow around 5 to 30 lbs force, less if it was hand drilled. (Hand drilling makes a slightly larger, and less circular hole)

 

While epoxying wedge bolts might work, I would not recommend it.

Firstly, you are tossing dollars away, secondly, the sleeve would create an air pocket in the epoxy, weakening the placement, and lastly, those in the know, can actually tell what style of bolt it is by the external appearance. If I see a sleeve wedge hanging out of sandstone I am going to assume that whoever placed it had no idea what they are doing and may waste my time and money ripping and replacing the bolts with glue ins.

 

If this is actually a new project, I would say we have to determine who is putting in these bolts, and put him on the right track. And determine and replace all the other deathtraps he may have set up for the rest of us.

 

 

 

Total rookie with his 30 bolts, but he's pretty right on

[Off_White]

Folks, that's why he's called The Uberator.

[marc_leclerc]

this may seem obvious but another thing to look out for is bolts placed in a loose flake or peice of rock... me and a friend recently found a bolt (a rap ring bolt) that looked like it was placed in a detached paice of rock so we tapped next to it with a hammer and the whole section of rock vibrated and dust fell out from behind it!

[RuMR]

There is A LOT of misinformation floating around here.

 

Sobo:

 

You are correct that some bolts require a hole not be too deep. Those are typically referred to as "drop in anchors", and are seldom used in a rock climbing situation. The Petzl Long Life is not such an anchor. Petzl does not make any cautions about a hole being too deep. The Long Life is very similar to the very common Zamac type nail drive which are placed by the pallet on commercial job sites.

 

The Mammut anchor you own sounds very similar to an "drop in". The other drill you describe sounds like an old Star Dryv-in self driller. These disappeared years ago, because they required hand drilling to place, something not viable on a job site.

 

Dru:

 

No manufacturer warns against holes being too deep for any wedge or "five piece' type anchor I am aware of. I think that here again you are spouting out your ass, like you are wont to do.

 

Mister E:

 

You are correct that American opinion is turning against wedge anchors. Why? I find it interesting that Petzl makes wedge anchors specifically for their customer base.

 

Peter Puget:

 

I believe that you are totally correct in your counseling against using epoxy of any sort with a mechanical anchor. Although I can't find it, Climbing circa 1991 had a very good study in which a PE explained what not to do to anchors. caulking them in, in any way, was highly discouraged.

 

RuMR:

 

People here should just shut up, and take your opinion on this stuff as gospel. You are always correct. That's why you're an engineer huh?

 

 

When epoxying bolts into concrete, not only do you want the hole smooth-sided, you want it as smooth as you can get it, and then you clean it out with flowing water and dry it with compressed air.

 

I have never done, seen, or heard of anyone cleaning an epoxy anchor with water. I have placed literally thousands of these, all with inspections, and find the statement unfathomable. Is there a new method favored?

 

Prior to injection of adhesive into the drilled hole, dust should be removed from the drilled holes using oil free compressed air and a nylon brush

 

Here is my .02.

 

I have placed over 30 bolts. Both by hand and with a power drill. Here is my take on answering a few of the misconceptions floating around here.

 

Hole depth:

In some cases hole depth is pertinant to the integrity of the hole. HOWEVER.... modern bolts like this are less common (and far more expensive) than the equivalent to the typical epoxy or expansion wedges. Old stardrive, ,and mashhead bolts required a specific depth to be set properly.

 

Modern expansion wedge bolts do NOT require a specific depth, and as a matter of fact, if you have a power drill at hand, you should actually drill the same depth as the length of the bolt, so if the bolt is bad (bends or hits a soft spot) you can bury the bolt, and hide the hole.

Obviously hand drilling you stop drilling as soon as possible.

 

If it was indeed an sleeve wedge style expansion bolt (a la fixe or redhead) I would suspect the wrong size bit was being used. a 10mm bit is close enough to look correct, and will sometimes even hold the bolt enough to appear good. The bolt can blow around 5 to 30 lbs force, less if it was hand drilled. (Hand drilling makes a slightly larger, and less circular hole)

 

While epoxying wedge bolts might work, I would not recommend it.

Firstly, you are tossing dollars away, secondly, the sleeve would create an air pocket in the epoxy, weakening the placement, and lastly, those in the know, can actually tell what style of bolt it is by the external appearance. If I see a sleeve wedge hanging out of sandstone I am going to assume that whoever placed it had no idea what they are doing and may waste my time and money ripping and replacing the bolts with glue ins.

 

If this is actually a new project, I would say we have to determine who is putting in these bolts, and put him on the right track. And determine and replace all the other deathtraps he may have set up for the rest of us.

 

 

 

Total rookie with his 30 bolts, but he's pretty right on

Hey Uberator...please illustrate where i'm wrong...oh that's right, i'm not...So STFU...

 

Also, summerprophet is in complete error about stating that he will get poor bond in hard rock with epoxy...

 

PS: Love, I'll see you in third grade...later bitch...

[MarkMcJizzy]

Goddamn it Rudy, you are one stupid son of a bitch. I told the whole goddamn site that you are the one person who we should listen to. We should listen to you like gospel, cause you are right. Get it, I'm saying something nice about you

 

Now if you can't take a compliment, fuck off.

 

PS Where does summerprophet speak to epoxy and hard rock? I was referring to his recommending against mixing epoxy and wedge anchors.

 

And I really mean it when I say you know what you are talking about in regards to anchors.

 

And you can fuck off.

 

And I'm going to kick the ball into your nuts in dodge ball

[RuMR]

backhanded compliment, i say...

 

summerprophet says:

"In hard rock the drill hole will be very smooth sided, and the epoxy will not penetrate the rock, creating a cylendar of glue with minimal adherance. The benefit of epoxy is it penetrates into the pores of the softer rock (and concrete) creating a placement structure far greater than the size of the meager hole." <-- this is complete bullshit (which i'll grant you, that you probably already know)...

 

 

I hear that the summer between second grade and third grade they have remedial reading comprehension classes...i suggest that you quickly register to get a slot...or are you gonna tell me that you skimmed the thread and missed this post??

 

 

PS: I ruled in dodge ball...bring it!

 

hey mark...sorry about being a crotchety bitch...i'm tired at work and pissed off...

 

 

Edited May 15, 2008 by RuMR

[MarkMcJizzy]

It was not a backhanded compliment. It was a honest and sincere vote of confidence in you as being clearly one of the most knowledgeable people on this site or on SuperTopo. And on this site, your knowledge of anchors is better than anyone else.

 

If because,you are a short little fucker, with a myriad of social problems, you want to take it as a "back handed" compliment, well go ahead.

 

As far as missing summerprophets second post, well who can blame me. You got all these guys spouting shit off, it's easy to miss a small pile of horseshit between all the big piles of bullshit. If I had spotted it, I would have jumped all over his post, especially his smarmy comment about concrete and rock behaving differently, and his attitude towards your statement.

 

It doesn't look like we will get to play against each other in dodge ball. Apparently the kids in your school are not allowed to mingle with us normal kids.

 

Is CBS still in your class? Or did he have to go down another grade level again?

[AlpineK]

Back sometime in the 90s I was climbing with Mark in Leavenworth. After climbing we went to Gustavs (back in the old days when it was cool place to hang out after climbing)

 

We were sitting with a large group of climbers. Mark starts loudly babbling some sort of bs. Soon enough everybody starts making fun of Mark. Mark gets indignant and loudly proclaims,

"Ya know I have feelings too," This made everybody at the table start

 

[RuMR]

 

If because,you are a short little fucker, with a myriad of social problems, you want to take it as a "back handed" compliment, well go ahead.

 

Is CBS still in your class? Or did he have to go down another grade level again?

 

...

 

CBS got expelled for smokin cigs and photographing chicks in the ladies room...

[Peter_Puget]

Old stardrive, ,and mashhead bolts required a specific depth to be set properly.

 

You guys also missed the Star Dryvin error. The few I've placed and the many I have seen did not have a depth requirement different from a 5 piece or wedge style anchor.

[RuMR]

I'll just use Mark's line of reasoning for missing that one, as he stated it so well...

 

"As far as missing summerprophets[iNSERT DUMBASS POSTER NAME HERE] second post, well who can blame me. You got all these guys spouting shit off, it's easy to miss a small pile of horseshit between all the big piles of bullshit. If I had spotted it, I would have jumped all over his post, especially his smarmy comment about concrete and rock behaving differently, and his attitude towards your statement."

 

[G-spotter]

Hey Mark and Rudy

 

You guys know so much

 

I'm gonna glue these babies in, what kind of epoxy should I use?

[Peter_Puget]

Hey I'd be happy to buy those off you!

 

Anyone have 1/4" bolts, I'll take 'em.

[Peter_Puget]

5/16" too.

[RuMR]

Hey Mark and Rudy

 

You guys know so much

 

I'm gonna glue these babies in, what kind of epoxy should I use?

For you Drool, i'd recommend Elmers glue...

[sobo]

Mark,

I'm no photographer or producer, but here is my set-up:

 

The complete Mammut bolt kit (exploded view)

 

The 15 mm Mammut bolt (exploded view)

The bolt is about 1.5 inches long after the bolt is fully sunk in the hole and the "snap off" portion of the head is broken away. The cutting head is integral with the bolt - no drill required.

 

Driving the Mammut bolt with hammer and holder

The "snap off" portion of the bolt head is jammed tight into the holder once the hammering begins. The holder is rotated slowly about the intended hole while you repeatedly hammer the strike plate. This striking and rotation performs the cutting action. Once the hole is drilled, blow it out, insert the truncated cone into the cutting end of the bolt, and reinsert the assembly into the hole. Drive solidly with the hammer against the strike plate until the threaded end of the bolt is flush with the rock face. The bolt is now set.

 

Tightening the stud

After the bolt is set flush with the rock, strike the holder solidly with one glancing blow parallel to the rock face to snap off the spent bolt head. Thread the stud through the hanger and into the bolt and tighten with the Allen head end of the holder. The bolt is now ready for use.

 

Removing the spent bolt head

Use the tapered drift pin to remove the spent bolt head (the "snap off" portion). This requires the use of the hammer to beat the drift pin through the drift pin hole and force the removal of the spent head. The holder is ready to drill the next bolt.

 

You are correct that some bolts require a hole not be too deep. Those are typically referred to as "drop in anchors", and are seldom used in a rock climbing situation...

Don't know why you would say this. These things are all the fuck over Europe...

 

The Mammut anchor you own sounds very similar to an "drop in".

It is indeed a drop-in style anchor. The obvious difference is that a separate drill (power or otherwise) and bit is not required since the bolt itself is the cutting bit.

 

The other drill you describe sounds like an old Star Dryv-in self driller. These disappeared years ago, because they required hand drilling to place, something not viable on a job site.

I don't know of what other drill you speak that I allegedly described. I was describing only my Mammut kit in my earlier posts. And I don't know what relevance hand drilling at job sites has to do with hand drilling for rock climbing anchors. And I've never power drilled a climbing anchor - never intend to neither (but that's another discussion).

[MarkMcJizzy]

Your Mammut kit is completely and totally similar to the old Star Dryvin. When I spoke that drop in's where not used in rock climbing, I was showing my North American-centrism. The Star Dryvin disapeared from the world market (American made) because they, like most drilling products (drills, mechanical and interference anchors) in North America, were made for the construction industry. Only in Europe are there drills and mechanical anchors made specially for climbing. SDS and Rawl taper drills were all made for the construction industry.

 

Sorry I hurt your feelings

 

And yes, I am aware that in the past, there have been attempts to recreate some drills from the past (tapers) for the American climbing market. Commercially, those attempts failed. So, with the exception of short term "one off" products, the North American drill and (mechanical) anchor market has been dominated by the large commercial fastener producers

[Peter_Puget]

Here is an old Star Drive bolt (a lead collar around the base of the sleeve is missing):

 

Edited May 21, 2008 by Peter_Puget

[billcoe]

Different things Peter. (great looking picture though!) Star was an anchor company which had several products, including Tek screws later in it's life. Rawl use to market what Paul has as Saber-tooths. The Pioneer route on Monkey Face had these in them as replacements for the original 1/4"ers. Most have fallen out and been replaced by wedge anchors.

A few problems with Saber-tooths Paul, was that you needed a bit of skill and care to place them, and furthermore, you wound up drilling a bigger hole than needed with what amounted to an inferior bit. (compared to current carbide bits for sure). A wedge anchor will increase the locking effect as it is pulled out, these did not. So once they started to wiggle, it was just a matter of time. I understand that in soft rock like Smith, they were fine to drill, but in granite they were a bear to place. I never used any of them, this is what I heard.

 

For general construction and fixing machinery, they sucked as well because in addition to the time sucking labor costs, you often needed to layout the hole locations and then move the machine you were going to bolt down into place because of the oversized nature of the anchor.

 

Sobo, great layout there! If you need some 3/8" stainless wedge anchors to join the 20th 21st century and the modern world, let me know!

[Peter_Puget]

Different things Peter.

 

My point exactly Bill. This design is from my experience the type of Star bolt most often used in climbing applications (granite all over and softer rock too (ie Pinnacles, CA) Almost always when you see and old bolt with a Star on it it is this type of bolt.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Peter_Puget

[billcoe]

Ok Peter.

 

BTW, here's a link to some Epoxy anchor info links on CC.com. Everyone whos not a current PE and does this for a living might consider reading it. Add to it if you can.

epoxy anchor thread

 

However, although the epoxy is the best stuff, going up and doing a single epoxy bolt probably isn't practical. Just pull the old one out with your fingers and go drill to the next larger size with a stainless wedge anchor.

 

Unless the rock really is bad, then spend the time and money for epoxy, like Rudy says.....go re-read his post.

[sobo]

A few problems with Saber-tooths Paul, was that you needed a bit of skill and care to place them, and furthermore, you wound up drilling a bigger hole than needed with what amounted to an inferior bit. (compared to current carbide bits for sure).

After placing a few of these over the years, I'd like to think I got the mad skilz to do it right. My holes tend to be a damn-near tolerance fit, and that's in granodiorite, to boot.

 

 

A wedge anchor will increase the locking effect as it is pulled out, these did not. So once they started to wiggle, it was just a matter of time.

Agreed; no argument there, bill. Although I must "confess" that some of my earliest bolts are still in use and bomber, from what I've heard...

 

 

...I understand that in soft rock like Smith, they were fine to drill, but in granite they were a bear to place. I never used any of them, this is what I heard...

They go in like butter in limestone/karst, like a bitch in Tuscarora sandstone (think Seneca and New River Gorge), and reasonably quite well in Idaho granodiorite. I've placed a few at Lightning Dome on the S Fork of the Clearwater, and it takes me about 20 minutes from the first bash to clipping in the draw. YMMV.

 

Sobo, great layout there! If you need some 3/8" stainless wedge anchors to join the 20th 21st century and the modern world, let me know!

Might have to take you up on that. And I have never been accused of being new skewl...