Carter meets Hamas chief

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Carter should lose his passport. He is giving his (undeserved) legitimacy to a group of murdering thugs. How did Hamas respond to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza? Anybody??

 

i think YOU should lose your passport.

 

it's you and your ilk that are destroying this country, as evidenced by the last 8 years.

 

Some rare deviations from the Buddhist-seance-tone in the last couple of posts...

 

the birds are no longer chirping, Jay. It's snowing for heaven's sake!

[JayB]

Carter should lose his passport. He is giving his (undeserved) legitimacy to a group of murdering thugs. How did Hamas respond to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza? Anybody??

 

I'm at a loss as to why we sent such a small diplomatic delegation for these important talks. At a minimum Carter should have been accompanied by Jim McDermott and Sean Penn.

 

You guys can't possibly be this stone stupid.

 

Carter's visit was approved by the State Department and undoubtedly sanctioned by the White House for its valuable information gathering purposes. Why would the White House not want to know what Hamas's plans, agenda, and interests are?

 

"Defying Israel, Carter Meets Hamas Leader

 

 

By ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: April 19, 2008

 

DOHA, Qatar — Defying opposition from the Bush administration and Israel, former President Jimmy Carter met for several hours Friday night in Syria with the exiled leader of Hamas, the militant Islamist group, to discuss efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

Mr. Carter also met earlier in the day with Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, as part of a Middle East peace tour that also includes visits to Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

 

The meeting with the Hamas leader, Khaled Meshal, took place under tight security in Damascus, the Syrian capital, and was closed to reporters. But it was said to have included talks about the fate of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured by Palestinian militants in 2006.

 

State Department officials had advised Mr. Carter not to meet with leaders of Hamas, which is considered a terrorist organization by the United States, Israel and the European Union, responsible for kidnappings and for suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis. Several members of Congress made similar appeals."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/19/world/middleeast/19carter.html

 

 

[STP]

I'm feeling a bit tense.

[sexual_chocolate]

Carter should lose his passport. He is giving his (undeserved) legitimacy to a group of murdering thugs. How did Hamas respond to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza? Anybody??

 

I'm at a loss as to why we sent such a small diplomatic delegation for these important talks. At a minimum Carter should have been accompanied by Jim McDermott and Sean Penn.

 

You guys can't possibly be this stone stupid.

 

Carter's visit was approved by the State Department and undoubtedly sanctioned by the White House for its valuable information gathering purposes. Why would the White House not want to know what Hamas's plans, agenda, and interests are?

 

"Defying Israel, Carter Meets Hamas Leader

 

 

By ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: April 19, 2008

 

DOHA, Qatar — Defying opposition from the Bush administration and Israel, former President Jimmy Carter met for several hours Friday night in Syria with the exiled leader of Hamas, the militant Islamist group, to discuss efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

Mr. Carter also met earlier in the day with Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, as part of a Middle East peace tour that also includes visits to Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

 

The meeting with the Hamas leader, Khaled Meshal, took place under tight security in Damascus, the Syrian capital, and was closed to reporters. But it was said to have included talks about the fate of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured by Palestinian militants in 2006.

 

State Department officials had advised Mr. Carter not to meet with leaders of Hamas, which is considered a terrorist organization by the United States, Israel and the European Union, responsible for kidnappings and for suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis. Several members of Congress made similar appeals."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/19/world/middleeast/19carter.html

 

 

so there are a number of high level israelis who purportedly supported the meetings, since conversation and negotiation seems to be the only way to bring back the israeli war prisoner (imagine that!).

[sexual_chocolate]

Some rare deviations from the Buddhist-seance-tone in the last couple of posts...

 

 

you evidently missed the blissful contemplative smile upon my lips as i posted....

[billcoe]

Tense we should all be. However, interesting that Fatah and Arafat had the exact same thing said of it for years, and after years of being stonewalled and attacked, then finally marginalized due to an open election, now they are the moderates which our admin and the Israelis want to work with.

[JayB]

Carter should lose his passport. He is giving his (undeserved) legitimacy to a group of murdering thugs. How did Hamas respond to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza? Anybody??

 

I'm at a loss as to why we sent such a small diplomatic delegation for these important talks. At a minimum Carter should have been accompanied by Jim McDermott and Sean Penn.

 

You guys can't possibly be this stone stupid.

 

Carter's visit was approved by the State Department and undoubtedly sanctioned by the White House for its valuable information gathering purposes. Why would the White House not want to know what Hamas's plans, agenda, and interests are?

 

"Defying Israel, Carter Meets Hamas Leader

 

 

By ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: April 19, 2008

 

DOHA, Qatar — Defying opposition from the Bush administration and Israel, former President Jimmy Carter met for several hours Friday night in Syria with the exiled leader of Hamas, the militant Islamist group, to discuss efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

Mr. Carter also met earlier in the day with Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, as part of a Middle East peace tour that also includes visits to Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

 

The meeting with the Hamas leader, Khaled Meshal, took place under tight security in Damascus, the Syrian capital, and was closed to reporters. But it was said to have included talks about the fate of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured by Palestinian militants in 2006.

 

State Department officials had advised Mr. Carter not to meet with leaders of Hamas, which is considered a terrorist organization by the United States, Israel and the European Union, responsible for kidnappings and for suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis. Several members of Congress made similar appeals."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/19/world/middleeast/19carter.html

 

 

so there are a number of high level israelis who purportedly supported the meetings, since conversation and negotiation seems to be the only way to bring back the israeli war prisoner (imagine that!).

 

If Hamas announced that it was prepared to accept the existence of Israel, and permanently renounce their stated ambition to exterminate Israel, they'd probably find rather more Israelis interested in dialogue...

[JayB]

Tense we should all be. However, interesting that Fatah and Arafat had the exact same thing said of it for years, and after years of being stonewalled and attacked, then finally marginalized due to an open election, now they are the moderates which our admin and the Israelis want to work with.

 

Hamas charter:

 

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

 

"KNOWING THE MOVEMENT

 

 

 

The Ideological Aspects

 

 

 

Article One

 

 

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam;

 

derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence,

 

life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by

 

it in whatever step it takes.

 

 

 

 

 

The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers

 

 

 

Article Two

 

 

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim

 

Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world

 

organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era. It is

 

characterized by a profound understanding, by precise notions and by a

 

complete comprehensiveness of all concepts of Islam in all domains of

 

life: views and beliefs, politics and economics, education and society,

 

jurisprudence and rule, indoctrination and teaching, the arts and

 

publications, the hidden and the evident, and all the other domains of

 

life.

 

 

 

Structure and Essence

 

 

 

Article Three

 

 

 

The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists

 

of Muslims who are devoted to Allah and worship Him verily [as it is

 

written]: 'I have created Man and Devil for the purpose of their worship"

 

[of Allah]. Those Muslims are cognizant of their duty towards themselves,

 

their families and country and they have been relying on Allah for all

 

that.

 

 

 

They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the

 

oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the

 

[oppressors'] desecration, filth and evil.

 

 

 

"Nay, but we hurl the true against the false; and it does break

 

its head and lo! it vanishes" Sura 21 (the Prophets), verse 18.

 

 

 

Article Four

 

 

 

The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and

 

thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and

 

aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty. Allah will

 

reward them.

 

 

 

 

 

Dimensions of Time and Space of the Hamas

 

 

 

Article Five

 

 

 

As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time

 

dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of

 

the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model,

 

the Quran its Constitution. Its spacial dimension extends wherever on

 

earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life; thus, it

 

penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres

 

of Heavens.

 

 

 

"Seest you not how Allah coins a similitude: a goodly saying, as

 

a goodly tree, its root set firm, its branches reaching into

 

heaven: Giving its fruit at every season by permission of its

 

Lord? Allah coins the similitudes for mankind in order that they

 

may reflect." Sura 14 (Abraham), verses 24-25.

 

 

 

 

 

Peculiarity and Independence

 

 

 

Article Six

 

 

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian

 

Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of

 

life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

 

Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions

 

coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights(11).

 

In the absence of Islam, conflict arises, oppression reigns, corruption is

 

rampant and struggles and wars prevail. Allah had inspired the Muslim

 

poet, Muhammed Iqbal(12), when he said:

 

 

 

When the Faith wanes, there is no security

 

There is no this-worldliness for those who have no faith

 

Those who wish to live their life without religion

 

Have made annihilation the equivalent of life.

 

 

 

 

 

The Universality of Hamas

 

 

 

Article Seven

 

 

 

By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of

 

the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the

 

reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the

 

Movement is a universal one. It is apt to be that due to the clarity of

 

its thinking, the nobility of its purpose and the loftiness of its

 

objectives.

 

 

 

It is in this light that the Movement has to be regarded,

 

evaluated and acknowledged. Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids

 

supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate

 

itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether

 

intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events,

 

and will find no excuses to justify his position. Priority is reserved to

 

the early comers.

 

 

 

Oppressing those who are closest to you, is more of an agony to

 

the soul than the impact of an Indian sword.

 

 

 

"And unto thee have we revealed the Scripture with the truth,

 

confirming whatever scripture was before it, and a watcher over

 

it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and

 

follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto

 

thee. For each we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out

 

way. Had Allah willed, He could have made you one community. But

 

that He may try you by that which he has given you [He has made

 

you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto

 

Allah, you will all return. He will then inform you of that

 

wherein you differ." Sura V (the Table), verse 48.

 

 

 

Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the

 

confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out

 

of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam(13) and his brothers in the Muslim

 

Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another

 

link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim

 

Brothers during the 1948(14) War, and to the Jihad operations of the

 

Muslim Brothers in 1968(15) and thereafter.

 

 

 

But even if the links have become distant from each other, and

 

even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit,

 

aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered

 

the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been

 

looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take.

 

The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said:

 

 

 

The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and

 

kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0

 

Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will

 

not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and

 

Muslim)(18).

 

 

 

 

 

The Slogan of the Hamas

 

 

 

Article Eight

 

 

 

Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Quzan its

 

Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most

 

sublime belief.

 

 

 

 

 

PART II

 

 

 

OBJECTIVES

 

 

 

Hamas finds itself at a period of time when Islam has waned away

 

from the reality of life. For this reason, the checks and balances have

 

been upset, concepts have become confused, and values have been

 

transformed; evil has prevailed, oppression and obscurity have reigned;

 

cowards have turned tigers, homelands have been usurped, people have been

 

uprooted and are wandering all over the globe. The state of truth has

 

disappeared and was replaced by the state of evil. Nothing has remained in

 

its right place, for when Islam is removed from the scene, everything

 

changes. These are the motives.

 

 

 

As to the objectives: discarding the evil, crushing it and

 

defeating it, so that truth may prevail, homelands revert [to their

 

owners], calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the

 

reinstitution of the Muslim state. Thus, people and things will revert to

 

their true place. Allah is the one whose held we see,

 

 

 

"...And if Allah had not repelled some men by others the earth

 

would have been corrupted. But Allah is the Lord of kindness to

 

[His] creatures." Sura II (The Cow), verse 251.

 

 

 

Article Ten

 

 

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement, while breaking its own path,

 

will do its utmost to constitute at the same time a support to the weak, a

 

defense to all the oppressed. It will spare no effort to implement the

 

truth and abolish evil, in speech and in fact, both here and in any other

 

location where it can reach out and exert influence.

 

 

 

 

 

PART III

 

 

 

STRATEGIES AND METHODS

 

 

 

The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf(19)

 

 

 

Article Eleven

 

 

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of

 

Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until

 

the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon

 

it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries,

 

and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that

 

right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all

 

organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an

 

Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day or Resurrection.

 

Who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of

 

Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari'a(20), and

 

it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby

 

Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the

 

Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the

 

Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the

 

Caliph of Muslims, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab(21). for his view of the conquered

 

land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the

 

possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and

 

consultations between the Caliph of Islam, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the

 

Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they

 

decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit

 

from it and from its wealth; but the control(22) of the land and the land

 

itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations

 

of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its

 

owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as

 

Heaven and earth

 

last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to

 

Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators.

 

 

 

Lo! This is certain truth. Therefore 0 Muhammed, praise the name

 

of thy Lord, the Tremendous." Sura LVI (the Event), Verse 95.23

 

 

 

 

 

Hamas in Palestine: Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism(24)

 

 

 

Article Twelve

 

 

 

Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the

 

religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging

 

Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land

 

of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty(25) binding on every

 

Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without

 

her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.

 

 

 

This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is

 

a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of

 

material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas

 

also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors

 

which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the

 

origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the

 

Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with

 

Heaven.....etc"

 

 

[Fairweather]

 

 

so there are a number of high level israelis who purportedly supported the meetings, since conversation and negotiation seems to be the only way to bring back the israeli war prisoner (imagine that!).

 

He was kidnapped under a scheme sanctioned by Hamas. He is not a prisoner of war. You may be confusing this soldier with the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped (and still held)by Hezbollah a short time later--the event that ultimately led to the Israel-Hezbollah war.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Fairweather

[STP]

Perhaps this Israeli should lose his passport:

 

Uri Avnery, a former member of the Israeli Knesset has been one of the few Israelis, if not the only one, to publicly show his appreciation to the peace efforts promoted by Jimmy Carter. The following is an Open Letter which he sent to the President….

 

 

Mr. Jimmy Carter

 

Former President of the United States

 

 

Dear Mr. President

 

 

I am writing to you on behalf of Gush Shalom, The Israeli Peace Bloc, to congratulate you on your wise and courageous decision to meet in Damascus with Hamas leaders and talk with them on the ways to promote peace in our region. I believe this is an act whose time had come - or rather, is already long overdue - and I would have liked the Government of Israel to avail itself of your position, your prestige and your tireless energy, in order to help end the suffering and bloodshed among both peoples.

 

 

As an increasing number of people are coming to realize, the policy of boycotting Hamas, starting on the day that the movement won the democratic elections held among the Palestinians, has failed utterly and caused terrible suffering and bloodshed to both peoples. The Government of Israel, with the support of the present US Administration, has undertaken large and small military operations; constantly sought to foment civil war among Palestinians; and imposed an inhuman economic boycott of the Gaza Strip, which exactly today reaches a cruel new peak with the denial of fuel to a million and half people. Not only did all these acts fail to break Hamas’ power; on the contrary, they resulted in increasing its popular support and severely weakening Mahmud Abbas (Abu Mazen) who is more and more perceived as a collaborator, unable to bring his people any real achievement.

 

 

The time has come to turn a new page, based on recognition of reality: Hamas is a significant force among Palestinians, and will continue to be such, for better or worse, in the foreseeable future. It is impossible to reach an Israeli-Palestinian Agreement - and actually implement it - without Hamas being a party to that agreement.

 

 

Your visit to our region, Mr. President, has the potential of imparting an enormous momentum to removing the obstacles presently hindering serious negotiations aimed at ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands conquered in 1967. To the mind of myself the my fellow activists, what is most urgently needed at present includes:

 

* A full ceasefire, between all Israelis and all Palestinians, which will proved a safe daily life to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip as to those of the Israeli communities near to it;

 

* Removal of the shameful economic siege, which is a terrible collective punishment for Gaza inhabitants of Gaza;

 

* Achieving at last an exchange of prisoners which would restore to their homes and families the captured Israeli soldier Gil’ead Shalit as well as a significant number of Palestinian prisoners

 

* Encouraging the creation of a Palestinian National Unity Government, representing all important factions and able to negotiate on behalf of the entire Palestinian people - instead of the complete veto which the governments of Israel and the US at present impose on the creation of such a government among Palestinians.

 

 

It would have been best for all of us, Mr. President, were you able to go to Damascus with a full mandate from the Government of Israel and from you successor in the White House, to promote to the best of your ability the solution to the conflict in our region and the end to both peoples’ suffering. But even in the absence of an official government mandate, know that you are going to Damascus with the warm regards and full support of the peace seekers in Israel.

 

 

Most Sincerely Yours

 

 

Uri Avnery

 

Former Member of the Knesset

 

On behalf of Gush Shalom

 

(The Israeli Peace Bloc)

 

-- source

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

well said; it could be a start.

[ivan]

i can not see how carter speaking w/ hamas can have a worse result than no one speaking w/ hamas - i can see how it will have no effect however

[Fairweather]

When even the EU won't speak to Hamas, it should tell you something.

[Fairweather]

well said; it could be a start.

 

p3MiD_U4CHQ

Edited April 19, 2008 by Fairweather

[sexual_chocolate]

When even the EU won't speak to Hamas, it should tell you something.

 

ahh, you DO look to the euros for guidance!

[Raindawg]

Jimmy Carter has no representative force for the United States in 2008. He had his term in 1977 - 1981 and was not re-elected, primarily because he was viewed by the majority as a failure.

Jimmy...love ya babe, but you got no real clout no mo' and you haven't for over 25 years.

Secondly, these Hamas guys need to recognize that Jerusalem, and much of "Palestine", was the Jewish capital and homeland for over 1500 years before Mohammed and remains so. Building a couple of mosques on the ruins of the Holy Temple destroyed by the Romans doesn't mean you have some sort of primary right to take over the place. Mecca has always been your special place #1. Make peace with Israel (the "Zionist entity" which is not going away), get your peaceful Palestinian state going with loads of international aid, and get on with your lives. Hamas...the present agenda is a waste of time! Get real and we'll all live together "side by side in peace" and both the Palestinians and the Israelis will prosper.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Raindawg

[olyclimber]

way to go raindawg. you tell em! well, now that you got that middle east thing patched up to everyone's satisfaction, what's next? disneyland?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Jimmy Carter has no representative force for the United States in 2008. He had his term in 1977 - 1981 and was not re-elected, primarily because he was viewed by the majority as a failure.

Jimmy...love ya babe, but you got no real clout no mo' and you haven't for over 25 years.

Secondly, these Hamas guys need to recognize that Jerusalem, and much of "Palestine", was the Jewish capital and homeland for over 1500 years before Mohammed and remains so. Building a couple of mosques on the ruins of the Holy Temple destroyed by the Romans doesn't mean you have some sort of primary right to take over the place. Mecca has always been your special place #1. Make peace with Israel (the "Zionist entity" which is not going away), get your peaceful Palestinian state going with loads of international aid, and get on with your lives. Hamas...the present agenda is a waste of time! Get real and we'll all live together "side by side in peace" and both the Palestinians and the Israelis will prosper.

 

I hear the Israelis bolt everything in sight, and the Palestinians cut them.

[STP]

Jimmy Carter has no representative force for the United States in 2008. He had his term in 1977 - 1981 and was not re-elected, primarily because he was viewed by the majority as a failure.

Jimmy...love ya babe, but you got no real clout no mo' and you haven't for over 25 years.

Secondly, these Hamas guys need to recognize that Jerusalem, and much of "Palestine", was the Jewish capital and homeland for over 1500 years before Mohammed and remains so. Building a couple of mosques on the ruins of the Holy Temple destroyed by the Romans doesn't mean you have some sort of primary right to take over the place. Mecca has always been your special place #1. Make peace with Israel (the "Zionist entity" which is not going away), get your peaceful Palestinian state going with loads of international aid, and get on with your lives. Hamas...the present agenda is a waste of time! Get real and we'll all live together "side by side in peace" and both the Palestinians and the Israelis will prosper.

 

What is this primary right you speak of? Are you talking about some kind of 'manifest destiny'? There was another time and place that spoke to the concept of blood and soil (Blut und Boden).

 

Historically, the Middle East has seen a succession of powers ( http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html) , Israel only one of many.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2008 by STP

[ivan]

israel must be allowed to exist, but it has no more right to the land than anyone else - they were hardly the original inhabitants and lost their claim fair n' square, just like the american injuns and a gazallion other aboroginal people who failed to withstand the onslaught of more powerful empires - if we all went back to where our ancestors came from, we'd all be in africa, and that place is fawked!

[Fairweather]

Granting Palestinians the "right of return" guarantees that Israel will no longer exist. It's not even worth discussing. And how long do you follow the roadmap when every peace gesture to date has been met with endless rocket fire and suicide bombers? The Palestinian people made their choice: Hamas. Now they can make peace with Israel or live with the consequences of their own rage.

[sexual_chocolate]

Granting Palestinians the "right of return" guarantees that Israel will no longer exist. It's not even worth discussing. And how long do you follow the roadmap when every peace gesture to date has been met with endless rocket fire and suicide bombers? The Palestinian people made their choice: Hamas. Now they can make peace with Israel or live with the consequences of their own rage.

 

Every peace gesture like expanding the settlements in disputed areas and israel's continued violation of UN dictates?

 

 

you, as always, are nothing but a hypocritical bag of hot air, living with the consequences of your own rage.

[Raindawg]

I hear the Israelis bolt everything in sight, and the Palestinians cut them.

 

You heard wrong.

Ever been climbing in Israel? I have, and I bet you haven't, Mr. Weissnichtheimer.

[Fairweather]

 

Every peace gesture like expanding the settlements in disputed areas and israel's continued violation of UN dictates?

 

 

you, as always, are nothing but a hypocritical bag of hot air, living with the consequences of your own rage.

 

The UN is nothing more than an anti-Semite club. Looks like you're a member too! Tell me; when did the pendulum swing such that those on the right became friends of Israel and liberals (like you) morphed into Jew-haters?

[StevenSeagal]

 

The UN is nothing more than an anti-Semite club. Looks like you're a member too! Tell me; when did the pendulum swing such that those on the right became friends of Israel and liberals (like you) morphed into Jew-haters?

Maybe you're being cynical for effect, but this is a pretty serious accusation, and one that gets made unnecessarily cheaper when it's thrown about carelessly; in particular, it gets used frequently towards anyone who questions the political actions of the State of Israel. I would argue that there is a significant difference between disagreeing with the politics of Israel, and being a "Jew-hater". However, the prevailing attitude of those who make such accusations seems to want to make Israeli politics off limits to criticism by assigning eternal victim status to Jews and guilting critics into silence. The Jewish people, and everyone else for that matter, deserve better than this. Not to mention, such hysterics stifle meaningful dialogue.

 

Both Israel and Palestine have a "right to exist", however you view the breadth and scope of that term; Israel is not going away, but neither are the native Arabs. In the end, I think that no solution- political or otherwise- is really possible as long as everyone continues to actually think that the land in question is "holy". In other words, this is a war that will likely never cease.