Helmets for Mountaineering?

[AlaskaNative]

A friend of mine is in training with a popular climbing club right now, and she showed up for Ice Axe training today with a Petzl Meteor III ( REI, Petzl), only to have the instructor tell her it was unacceptable for anything but rock climbing.

 

I know it's polystyrene and can only take one hard hit before needing replacement, but nothing I've read in FoTH, or online, or heard from climbers, has said this.

 

So I'm not looking to incite an argument, but wondering what the climbers here have to say.

 

This instructor insisted on polycarbonate helmets like the Ecrin Roc, or the Elios.

 

Of course, the same teacher told her that her axe was attached to her pack all wrong because she was using the Axe-S attachments on a Mountain Hardware pack...

(Axe-S uses a metal tab that goes through the head of the axe with a thin bungie, so you don't have to do the drop-and-flip, then wrap the shaft. There's an example in this photo.)

[TrogdortheBurninator]

look at what the top alpinists in the world are using, and many are using lighter weight PS helmets. Clearly there is a compromise between durability and weight, but it is one many have chosen to accept.

 

When I first got my meteor III, I was scared to bring it on anything but solid rock climbs. I soon realized it wasn't nearly as fragile as the weight it implied (even if some avatars could rip it in half with their bare hands), and slowly started bringing it on all rock, alpine, and even ice climbs. I kept thinking I would use my ecrin on ice, but 1/2 the weight is pretty convincing in a pack. Frankly, I havent really thought about grabbing the ecrin since about 2 months after I got the meteor III. I do fully accept that it might accidentally break easier than the ecrin, which might prematurely end a trip, and cost me a few more $$$ when I get back home.

 

Instructor has a right to his own opinion, but he is wrong, and the helmets have required certification.

[rbw1966]

As Trogdor pointed out, both styles of helmets are certified. I think the instructors concern might be directed towards the fact that the polycarbonate helmets can take repeated blows while the polystyrene can really only sustain one serious blow before they should be (or will have to be) replaced.

[counterfeitfake]

Well, instructors can be gapers too...

 

Teaching a basic class is tricky. Most students have no basis to make their own decisions about gear (or technique, or anything else), and just do what they're told. So instructors have a strong tendency to be conservative in telling them what to do.

 

I think using a very light helmet is a fine option when you have the experience to make your own decision about the tradeoffs involved. I think a beginner is better off with something more durable. Lightweight gear often requires more care and attention. I'd rather have students on my team use gear that will stand up to the abuse a n00b might accidentally dish out.

 

Does FOTH actually say anything about polystyrene helmets?

[ericb]

I do fully accept that it might accidentally break easier than the ecrin, which might prematurely end a trip, and cost me a few more $$$ when I get back home.

 

Prematurely ending the trip for 12 people?....Sounds like a cluster the instructor would be well advised to avoid IMO.

[Dane]

The instructor is a nob on this particular subject. Helmet is certified to the same level as the ones he has suggested. Some would argue (myself included) that polystyrene actually offers better protection than the polycarbonate helmets from any impact. Having used both and broken a polystyrene helmet in a fall I know which one I'd rather have on my head when things are bouncing off it. And it is not polycarbonate.

 

Trust me, breaking a polystyrene helmet in a fall or from falling objects will generally end any trip at that point. And you'll want to go down. From my limited experience take the same impact in a polycarbonate helmet and you might not be making the choice. More likely someone else will be making it for you.

 

But being a nob myself it is hard to keep up with all the new gear. So I can see the problem. For an instructor, even in a volenteer position, I would have hoped for more.

 

 

 

[TrogdortheBurninator]

If they are climbing on trips, were a group of 12 relies on only one leader (i.e. no way to separate group), they have bigger problems than gear choice.

[ericb]

The instructor is a nob on this particular subject. Helmet is certified to the same level as the ones he has suggested. Some would argue (myself included) that polystyrene actually offers better protection than the polycarbonate helmets from any impact. Having used both and broken a polystyrene helmet in a fall I know which one I'd rather have on my head when things are bouncing off it. And it is not polycarbonate.

 

Trust me, breaking a polystyrene helmet in a fall or from falling objects will generally end any trip at that point. And you'll want to go down. From my limited experience take the same impact in a polycarbonate helmet and you might not be making the choice. More likely someone else will be making it for you.

 

But being a nob myself it is hard to keep up with all the new gear. So I can see the problem. For an instructor, even in a volenteer position, I would have hoped for more.

 

 

 

yadda yadda yadda....bitching about this "popular climbing club's (oxymoron acknowledged)" failure to embrace fast and light methods on this site is about as novel as Bush bashing.

Edited March 24, 2008 by ericb

[pindude]

Actually, ericb, this discussion is constructive, and not what I'd characterize as your normal cc.com bashing. I agree that the instructor is plain wrong; ditto what Dane, Counterfeit, and Trogdor said. The latest edition of FOTH (7th ed., 2003), describes both the Ecrin-type and lighter weight polystyrene helmets, the main stipiluation being "buy a climbing helmet with the UIAA/CEN mark, which ensures minimum standards of impact resistance." The Meteor III is perfectly acceptable, for this and several other reasons.

 

The Meteor and similar lightweight climbing helmets have been used in the alpine environment for years now. Interestingly, I'm still wearing my old Ecrin but have been planning for many months to buy something like the Meteor III to wear for alpine as well as cragging.

 

As Counterfeit mentioned, there is indeed a tendency for volunteer instructors to err on the conservative side. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But there's also the tendency for some volunteer instructors to sometimes be overly officious or authoritative (reminds me of the instructor we saw at Bruce's Boulder years ago with a clipboard and a construction helmet with a big, bright rotating light on top: no thanks ). I would clarify with the actual director of the course, and perhaps even point the director and the instructor-in-question straight to this discussion.

 

It should also be said that for helmets that break, most do so when they're not being worn, by either being dropped or banged around when they're attached to a pack. If not being worn (a climbing helmet is an excellent Cascades rainhat), have her keep her helmet inside her pack (and toward the top), but if she has to strap it on the outside, make sure it's secure and won't dangle and bash. When I've had to attach my helmet on the outside, I'll try to put it on top, and it's not uncommon then for me to use 3 and even 4 biners to ensure it's absolutely secure. It's obvious more care and attention is required for a lightweight helmet compared to the Ecrin-type.

[counterfeitfake]

A lot of people are quick to offer opinions on how classes should be taught, when they've never taught a class themselves. It's a really different scenario than going out with a buddy of yours who's never climbed before.

 

You can say whatever you want about your expectations of volunteers, but they're just that, volunteers. If you want to improve the talent level of the volunteer pool, there's a simple way to do it.

[AlaskaNative]

Good discussion, and pretty much in line with what I expected.

Again, not wanting to create tension, and sorry if some of that has happened.

 

Two things worth pointing out:

- rbw1966 was right about the instructors reasons. The instructor said he wanted her to have a helmet that could take repeated hits. His reasoning was that multiple hits are much more common when Alpine climbing, where it would be unusual while Rock climbing. He didn't mention any concerns about hits while attached to a pack.

 

- I definitely don't want to be hostile towards the instructor, or undermine his authority. He does care about his students, is doing his best (for free), and cannot be expected to know everything. I just wanted to collect a better cross-section of opinions from experienced climbers (well, that and see if she really needs to go out and buy another helmet).

 

Any comments on the Ice Axe with the Axe-S attachment?

If this is too small an issue to merit comment, that makes sense, just asking.

Edited March 24, 2008 by AlaskaNative

[counterfeitfake]

Lest I give the wrong impression, I believe in being flexible about this sort of thing. I don't like bureaucracy and blind following of any rule. Furthermore I looked at my club's basic class gear list and it only says "UIAA Certified Mountaineering helmet" so I would have a hard time turning this student away, myself. But it is indeed up to each instructor.

 

I've never seen this Mountain Hardwear ice axe attachment in person. In the photo it looks weird, and seems like it might not work with all axes. But if it works, why argue about it?

[Dane]

First off no clue who the club or instructor is.

 

As I said, "hard to keep up with all the modern gear". In this case the guy is wrong on both counts.

 

Now what is funny is both Modod's in Banff and Feathered Friends staff here couldn't figure out how to use the new ice axe straps when they first showed up on packs. But the new strap system does work very well once you figure it out.

 

As far as multiple impacts are concerned the instructor just doesn't have the right imfortmation or experience to make that judgement. He obviously doesn't understand the limitations of polycarbonate or polystyrene imo.

 

Polycarbonate helmets are better than nothing if you get hit with something or you hit something but not by much. In other words they give less protection than a "throw away" polystyrene.

 

I have taught and guided rock and ice climbing and guided internationally and broken more than one helmet along the way. I based my opinions and comments on helmets I have personally broken. I currently climb in a Grivel Salamander the majority of time. But given the option of climbing in just one helmet I'd take the current polystyrene Tracer model from BD. Look around you'll see that helmet on some pretty hard alpine climbs. Multiple hits quite likely.

 

A good read on the subject are Twight's thoughts.

http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/products.php?gid=11#bothist

 

[counterfeitfake]

Was that link supposed to be something Twight wrote? He's not credited on that page.

 

[Nick]

I have had multiple hits on a helmet and was very glad it was not a super light polystyrene helmet (it was the classic Edelrid bucket). Sometimes rock comes down in streams, and then comes again. Now I compromise and use a mid-weight helmet with both polystyrene and a moderately sturdy shell (Petzl Elios). Seems like a reasonable compromise for the alpine. One thing I like better about some of the newer helmets is how the improved fit can protect your forehead in a fall. Damage to the frontal lobe can mean major personality changes.

 

I don't know anything about the above-mentioned mystery instructor, but sometimes you will find that climbers have pet peeves based on some ugly experience in their past.

[ericb]

I've got an elios, and find it a good compromise between weight and durability

Edited March 29, 2008 by ericb

[crackers]

Was that link supposed to be something Twight wrote? He's not credited on that page.

 

Um...he's the president of Grivel North America; while he might not be on the phone at his desk every day, he writes the copy for the website and does that whole "I'm Mark Twight, and I approve this message" thing.

[Dannible]

Trust me, breaking a polystyrene helmet in a fall or from falling objects will generally end any trip at that point. And you'll want to go down.

 

Thats a good point. If you are leading a big group and dealing with rockfall big enough to break helmets, something is wrong. I myself use a Ecrin Roc, but mostly because I got it for sale, and can't justify buying a new one right now.

[Dane]

One thought came to mind while rereading this thread. The subject under discussion needs some realistic perspective.

 

Not uncommon to get hit by multiple impacts on any ice or serious alpine climb. But even then the vast majority of impacts are not something that will bother you or your helmet, be it polystyrene or polycarbonate. Those same impacts on your unprotected head might well be a totally different story.

 

If you are talking impacts that will destroy a polystyrene helmet then you should also realise that the same impact to a polycarbonate helmet will likely cause a serious head injury.

 

While both helmet styles recieve UIAA certification the amount of actual protection offered by the different manufacturing techniques are quite different in a serious impact.

 

Take a look at bicycle helmets to get an idea of what that industry thinks is "reasonable" protection. No polycarbonate helmets there. And for good reason.

 

Rockfall as part of a "class" trip isn't acceptable by any standard. Neither is an uncontrolled fall. Rock and ice fall may be a part of extreme alpinism but it is not accepted as OK, at any time. Same reason we climb in winter, really cold conditions or at night to avoid such things.

 

How many accidents reports have you read where the helmeted climber/skier died of a fall, rock fall, or avalanche? The "certified" climbing helmet isn't really all that much protection in the first place.

 

Helmets are one of those things that are only used in case of an accident. Much better idea is not to be in situation where you'll likely use one for the intended purpose. Accidents do happen, so wear a helmet. Make it the best one you can afford, but any helmet is better than no helmet. Better yet, the best idea is, climb smart so you never need one.

 

 

[Wastral]

I find this discussion FLAWED. The Meteor Petzel helmets under discussion is good for only 1 rock UIAA aprooved rock hit. When climbing there are a heck of a lot more than single rocks coming down when the crap hits the fan.

 

1 hit helmets are worthless in my opinion no matter how light they are. They are fine for biking because after you quit rubbing your skin on the pavement you get the option of not getting back on the bike. In the Alpine environment, the rocks keep falling if you are caught in the crapper which is usually the case.

 

Wish DM helmets were still made. Got mine while I still could. Gotta love Carbon Fiber/Kevlar/Spectra. True my helmet cost a couple extra dollars, but its still the 2nd lightest helmet ever made to get the UIAA approval. Only the petzel 1 hit wonder is lighter. The carbon/Spectra DM helmet can take 10 UIAA "rocks". The other Petzel/BD helmets commonly found in Marmot/REI are good for 2? max.

 

I get to live instead of being killed when the inevitable 2nd rock comes down. They really hurt when they hit your shoulder....

 

Brian

[bonathanjarrett]

Get one of these bad boys! You can take rock fall to the face all day long.

[Figger_Eight]

I used to be an instructor and I'd make everyone wear an Ecrin Roc so when they did something dumb, I can smack them in the head more than once.

 

FWIW, any impact that would render a foam helmet unusable would ruin anyone's day regardless of the helmet they're wearing.

 

Also remember, the speed at which pack companies can develop new mousetraps is far faster than the ability of any large climbing organization to change their curriculum. And especially when you're dealing with volunteers who only get out on the odd weekend, it's much slower than if you are working with professional guides who are more aware of current technology and techniques.

[pms]

It is interesting to note that the Petzl Meteor actually absorbs more impact. Lower impact is transmitted to the head compared to say the Ecrin Roc or HB Dyneema helmets. So in a hard fall the Meteor actually protects the head from injury more. I understand what folks are saying about multiple frequent rockfall hits, but for the average user the Meteor seems like a reasonable choice too. I'm not used to experiencing much rockfall at all, but maybe I'm doing the wrong routes or something. In summary the most important thing is to be wearing some type of helmet, hopefully a CE or UIAA certified one.

[G-spotter]

I have never hit my head while falling but I have sure taken a bunch of helmet whacks from falling ice and rock. I am on my second polycarbonate helmet. If I was using polystyrene helmets I'd probably be on my 12th by now.

[RuMR]

f-ing mountaineers...