billcoe Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 Raindawg/Dwayner/Don speaks: Certifiably concerned. It's like this... Change isn't always good. Some of you are bitchin' about how much Bush sucks and you might argue that you preferred Clinton or someone else, or other policies before the present administration. I, personally, saw and experienced a better day, IMHO, that many new climbers never saw, in which there was an environmental awareness that has since been compromised...that is, an awareness that any permanent alteration to the natural climbing environment should be thoughtfully considered. For a few years, when I first became enchanted with climbing, this was the cause and an inspiration to me. Climb clean as possible and leave little trace. Every permanent alteration (trail, piton or bolt] should be an ethical decision. ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT NOTION, alleged Green-Folk??? (And yes, I recognize that not everyone was doing it back then...so what...the idea was still there.) Sport climbing (although fun, safe and with an incredibly short learning-curve that appeals to the masses), and callous rap-bolting, are the anti-thesis of this. Anything wrong with sharing that opinion? Am I an "old fogey" because some people promoted this environmentalistic ideal in the 1970's? Ever consider that clean-climbing is a great idea that should be as current as ever? Should I just accept any crap that comes along because it comes along? Those of you who call yourselves "progressives" are often the last to call B.S. when you see it...if it's "change" than it's O.K. and those who don't "go with the flow" are therefore anachronistic??? That's stupid reasoning. Good ideas are good ideas whatever the vintage. If the same green idea originated in 2007, I'd be equally enthusiastic. Some of you claim to be environmentalists but you've got a blind eye when it comes to your favorite sport because you're afraid of the implications: your cheap, dumb, unenviromental way of climbing might be ethically dubious and if found out, it could be shut down by THE MAN....Maybe it should be. The old smokescreen of masking the issue with arguments that "they're building a ski area over there, or a road in the National Park there" or "bolts are tiny li'l things" is a joke. It doesn't justify that everything short of the huge and dramatic is therefore trivial. I'm a climber. I can't solve all the world's problems. I'm concerned with a certain aspect of it, as minute as it might seem (and is). I choose my causes and I'm glad that there are people addressing some of the other important issues out there. I believe I saw a better day and things should have evolved from there. In some ways they did (clean technology such as cams, and such) but in other ways, I've seen it totally digress (e.g. indiscrimate sport-bolting). I don't need your sympathy...if I find anything pathetic or "sad", it's those who automatically accept the status quo as "all good" and anything new or different as "progress". I find it pretty sad when the ordinary modern backpacker seems to have superior environmental ethics to many a "modern" climber, the latter typically accepting the routine, gratuitous and reckless permanent alterations of the environment as the status quo and the dominant modus operandi, along with the attitude that they have a right to do whatever they want at will with public resources. In my opinion, many climbers are no better than the unthoughtful picnicker who leaves a pile of garbage in their wake....at least the paper portions of the excessive MacDonald's debris will soon disolve...unlike the metallic refuse that's routinely and thoughtlessly drilled in profusion in the public domain. Anything else you dont' understand? Any of you self-styled hippies have a problem with my environmentalism? (I never thought I'd be a bigger hippie than Off White!) - Raindawg/Dwayner/Don P.S. Despite the friction, I consider Mr. White a brother whose history overlaps with mine, Mr. Billcoe: a probable contemporary who might be fun to meet, at least for some beers, and Kevbone???????? dang dude, you ain't learned to think so much yet but we's could make a hilarious climbing video called "An Exercises be in Contrasts". PPSS: Ya. billcoe...the Smith Rocks are pretty much a "late-term abortion"....makes me wanna hurl. Don, unlike many of your other posts, where it appears that you reach way out to the edge of extremism to try and get a point across, this is a clear and reasonable post with very valid points. I think that I agree with everything you said except the Smith part. I 90 percent of the time climb cracks and occasionally aid like Monkey Face. I like the place. BTW, Matt make some real good points about the difficulty of communicating with this medium. Warm regards Bill Quote
Bug Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 I'll admit to being a curmudgeon, Bug, but not the personal attack. I actually attempted to steer the conversation AWAY from personal attack, saying I somewhat agree with OffWhite but it is neither here nor there and I'm more interested in talking about our ethical discussions "in general" than I am in talking about whether or not Dawg is a good guy. In my examples of what I find frustrating, I sought to chose examples that regular posters here would recognize, but I similarly avoided mention of some items I have recently found substantially more maddening or whatever or are recent "hot topics" that someone would surely feel the need to debate. Further, I selected examples that were not necessarily references to the Dawg or even his position. I hoped to talk and encourage talk about an "issue" rather than a "person." As you note, Dawg's essay here was well stated. I used your post as a jumping off point. I do not feel any need to defend Dawg or attack you. You two just happen to be currently posting interesting arguements with points I wanted to address. Quote
olyclimber Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 i'm glad we worked this all out and there will be no disagreements going forward. now i want to talk about a shitter at Index, because today i could have used one. Quote
sobo Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 can we talk about global warming yet? Another 15-18 posts, and then, yes. Patience, dear... And porter, it's "sayeth"... Quote
Bug Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 i'm glad we worked this all out and there will be no disagreements going forward. now i want to talk about a shitter at Index, because today i could have used one. Blue-bag it. Then carry it home and fertilize your vegitable garden. Yeah. That's what I'm sayin, "eat shit". Quote
olyclimber Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 you are the reason why sensitive new users don't stick around and post. your foul mouth and negative-nelly attitude are turning off droves of users. but i'm ok with it. you can stay, we won't ban you today. Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 i'm glad we worked this all out and there will be no disagreements going forward. now i want to talk about a shitter at Index, because today i could have used one. Blue-bag it. Then carry it home and fertilize your vegitable garden. Yeah. That's what I'm sayin, "eat shit". Night soil. Great way to die. Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 you are the reason why sensitive new users don't stick around and post. your foul mouth and negative-nelly attitude are turning off droves of users. but i'm ok with it. you can stay, we won't ban you today. Gargle my marbles geezer. Quote
olyclimber Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 BANNING THREAT LEVEL IS YELLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 BANNING THREAT LEVEL IS YELLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go tongue punch the dark star suzy Quote
olyclimber Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 you speak the vernacular of one who has seen a lot of verbal assault. seek psychic healing from a homeopath. Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 you speak the vernacular of one who has seen a lot of verbal assault. seek psychic healing from a homeopath. Uh, no shit. I don't work for microsoft. I ain't talking to no homopaths, What they do behind closed doors is their business but I just dont like em. Quote
olyclimber Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 ain't talking to no homopaths, What they do behind closed doors is their business but I just dont like em. have you heard of a double negative? it is two negations that cancel each other out to create a freudian slip. Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 Have you ever heard of satire? Its when literary tone is used to ridicule or make fun of human vice or weakness. Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 i have never heard of satire Good. Now lets try the "Victorian We" Quote
akhalteke Posted July 13, 2008 Posted July 13, 2008 I am not aware that there is a difference between the two. Quote
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