New Route Ethics- Consensus

[tradclimbguy]

Yes, I did say that. Point was, what "I" think as "considerate" isn't the same as what somebody else would think which was my point. You apparently don't think any consideration should be taken, thus proving the point.

 

Are you sure your not some french climber who likes climbing routes others are currently on and clipping your rope through their gear???

[sexual_chocolate]

Yes, I did say that. Point was, what "I" think as "considerate" isn't the same as what somebody else would think which was my point. You apparently don't think any consideration should be taken, thus proving the point.

 

I don't think the above is consistent with what you said earlier:

 

Some of us will be considerate and give you the time needed but there will always be somebody out there who thinks they've given you enough time

 

This implies that only the person who gives you more time is being "considerate", and if one does not "give more time", then one is not considerate (which reveals your bias.)

[Bug]

It's a need to leave a territorial piss mark upon the landscape of the climbing community.

 

Stand still will ya?

[sexual_chocolate]

It's a need to leave a territorial piss mark upon the landscape of the climbing community.

 

Stand still will ya?

 

[area51]

When I write the guide for the chossy crap I frequent, I always include the developer, AND the 1st acensionist. IMO, my ego says the developer is the more important of the two.

 

Nobodies ever poached a route from me or my buddies, mostly b/c we want everyone to have fun, so all our projects are open. And we even offer out FAs to folks for various reasons, like bringing extra beer to the campfire!

 

Afterall, if you come over from Bend or Portland to check the place out, I'm not gonna then tell ya to stay the frack away.

 

(Although, if you put up a squeeze job, or rip acres of moss off some shitty 5.4, you will be asked to leave....)

 

Cheers!!!

[Bug]

It's a need to leave a territorial piss mark upon the landscape of the climbing community.

 

Stand still will ya?

 

If you work all day on a post and I come along and read it and think it is worth steeling and post it as my own, is my ego bigger than yours?

Who pissed on the landscape?

The worker or the opportunist?

NOTHING about climbing is for the public good.

It is about personal pleasure however that is measured.

No one really cares about how well you climb uless they want you to be a rope gun so they can get better.

Like you said, lets call it what it is.

 

Or we could say the glass is half full and those who work hard to put up good routes that lots of other people enjoy are doing the public (limited to the climbing public of course) a favor.

Steeling their little moment in the sun is not honorable.

[ScottP]

the idea that a person can claim a line indefinitely seems misguided at best, and it seems as though you suggest that honoring such a claim is the only polite way to proceed.

 

I am saying that it's quite the opposite, and a decent case can be made that to claim ANY line as one's own reeks of impoliteness. Artists of Japanese tradition would not even sign their paintings because to do so would be an obvious reference to self, ie ego (ego transcendence is what they were after, although certainly not the case with most climbers today).

 

So to me, claiming rights to a piece of publically owned rock is nothing but ego aggrandisement, and it needs to be understood as what it is. It's a need to be first, a need to be recognized, a need to leave a territorial piss mark upon the landscape of the climbing community. Whether or not you think this an acceptable form of behaviour is irrelevant really (since i concede a 6 month window for one to leave this stain), but let's at least call it what it is.

 

SC's perspective is what I was thinking as I read through this thread..

The answer to the original question depends on the intentions and personality of the person who started working on the line.

 

Let's say I am bushwacking somewhere up the Stillaguamish drainage and I come across a nice white granite wall with a beautiful splitter hand crack running up the middle of it that obviously needs to be cleaned before it's climable. I think to myself, "Man, that's a beautiful line. I am going to climb it." I come back later with all my digging and scrubbing tools and spend x amount of time prepping the crack so it will be climable. I come back later to do my ascent and when I get to the top I find evidence that someone else has climbed the route. To me, I got to do what I intended, which was to climb this beautiful handcrack. Am I pissed because someone else climbed it before me? No, because my ego isn't stroked or extended by being first. To someone else, it might be considered an invasion of what they perceive as theirs.

 

I believe because this issue involves different egos/personalities/whatever, the question is moot; those who jump on someone else's efforts are going to do so because they are inconsiderate and don't care about social convention. We have no basis for stopping them from doing so short of camping at the base of the route and resorting to violence to fend them off if they try.

Those who are considerate won't try.

[sexual_chocolate]

Those who are considerate won't try.

 

what if said route had now sat for 1 year without being climbed, and yes it was a beautiful line and others want to climb it.

Is it considerate of the one who found it to say that others may not get on it?

[ScottP]

I guess that would depend...

If I saw this beautiful line and I wanted to climb it, and could, I would. If there was somebody at the base saying they had worked on it for a year and they were hoping to do the FA, I'd give them the consideration.

 

[sexual_chocolate]

fair enough. in that situation i would probably do the same thing, and just to turn the heat up a little, say that i would be trying it in a few months (since sitting on a route for over a year is kinda lame).

[Raindawg]

if someone bolts a route, they should get 6 mo's, imo.

 

6 months.

 

6 months yes.

 

6 months in jail.

[high_on_rock]

I think the issue can be solved by discontinuing use of the “conclusory titles,” and merely stating the “explanatory facts.” Rather than applying a title like “FA,” “Developer;” perhaps one could merely list the facts: “Developed by MattP, FA by Sherri one week later.” Then people can make their own judgments.

Merely my humble opinion.

 

[billcoe]

Say hello to my little friend whom I've named "Dawg" in yer honor. The Dawgs warming up for springtime.

 

 

BTW, I'm not the ethics police, theres already too many Elmer Gantry types running around trying to police the world anyway: I wouldn't want to be on the force cause Raindawg there wants that job real bad anyway.

 

However, it seems to me that we should treat others the way we ourselves want to be treated. If someone keeps trying a line, and they cleaned it extensively, until they wander off, I'd give them some room.

 

Course, I most likely couldn't get up it anyway unless it was an elderly fella trying to climb with an Oxygen tank or sumpin'.

 

[Raindawg]

...the idea that someone can go put bolts on a piece of rock on public land and claim it as theirs, or claim a trad line on public land, is an asinine notion....there's no friggin' personal ownership of public land, b*tches.

 

I can't believe that I'm mostly agreeing with Sexy-Cocoa!

 

As many climbers act as if they're anarchists on public land, rap-bolting and installing their permanent metallic "routes" to their heart's content (itself an act of disrespect for the land), then why should they expect anyone to respect some sort of temporary or long-term personal priority or faux-"ownership" of this offense?

 

"Gosh! Someone poached my sporty-route!" BOO-HOO!

[billcoe]

See?

[sexual_chocolate]

However, it seems to me that we should treat others the way we ourselves want to be treated. If someone keeps trying a line, and they cleaned it extensively, until they wander off, I'd give them some room.

 

this is a given in my book, with the only question being how long is long enough.

 

i once gave a person 6 months on a line he equipped AFTER it had been sitting red-tagged for maybe 4 years or so. i actually felt a little guilty about it, but come on, someone's gotta climb a cool line! i've also snaked lines from friends just after they found them; so there! oh and i've had lines climbed before i could get them, alas. the pain the pain! but i'd never get my panties in a bunch if someone climbed a line i'd bolted, especially if i'd had a few months to try it.

[sexual_chocolate]

caveat: the lines i poached were merely boulder problems, rather obscure. i've stayed off people's bolted lines, unless they started to fester and spoil.

[Bug]

Back in Montana, if someone climbed "MY" line, I moved over to the next one. Course, I shot the bastard first.

[lancegranite]

A person might want to offer to belay to the intrepid spagnum scrubber/ new router.

Good partners are a most valuable commidity.

 

[TimL]

This is a funny subject. It's kinda like a bunch a little kids fighting for toys.

 

Anyways, I think if someone puts effort into bolting or cleaning, or both bolting and cleaning a line, then they deserve the chance to send it first. With that said, most people who I know here want people to climb their lines ASAP so they can put a grade to the route.

 

On the other hand, if you have a crack or natural line that has just been sitting there well...forever and one day someone decides to take some interest without putting any effort into preparing it, I think its a free for all.

 

Last point. First Free Ascents?

 

 

This past summer I redpointed a fairly difficult crack route on this tower. When the Boss and I were rapping off I noticed a fairly obvious line right around the corner. I did a little research and asked the refuge owner if the route had been freed. It turns out that the line was a 2 pitch aid line that had yet to be freed and would go at a reasonable grade. So I stated my interest and said I'd be back next weekend to do the route. Take in to account that this route had been opened ten years ago and nobody noticed it untill I started asking about it. Well, I came back the following weekend to find the route "prepared" and being worked on by two regulars for a free ascent. I felt a little pissed but I backed off and didn't try the route. Granted I'm not sure if they did it but if they have yet to do it, I'm going back this spring and sending the fucker. I guess with these things you gotta keep quiet. I know another aid line awaiting a free ascent in the same area, but this time I'm not going to say anything until the project is finished. I think in my case, although I've climbed in the area for two and a half years, I'm an outsider and they don't want outsiders sending their lines.

[Rad]

I completed a few new lines last year, and the best one was only ready for leading in September. In this land of moss and choss, route development can be hard work. It took many days, spread over nearly a whole summer, to scope, rap, clean, TR to find the best line, and work out a way to protect it with a combination of gear and bolts. It's got great climbing in a stunning position within an hour of Seattle. Alas, I didn't get an opportunity to try to send this route before the rain started dumping so it will have to wait until spring.

 

Is it mine, mine, mine and you can't try it until I give you permission? I think not.

 

Should I draw you a map so you can make the FA before I get a crack at it? I think not.

 

Will I be heart-broken if I fail on a few redpoint attempts and one of my climbing partners sends it first? I think not.

 

Should that person be listed as the FA and my contribution not be recognized? I think not.

 

Converting a vision into something people will climb, enjoy, and find inspiring for years to come is what I strive to achieve in developing new routes. The FA is less important, in my view than the creation.

[Rad]

Good partners are a most valuable commidity.

 

Amen.

[beecher]

There are courteous people, people who don't give a shit, and people who don't know any better.

There are different rules (or, um, protocols I guess) for each, the great part is that we each get to decide.

No rules, just be yourself and decide whether that means being patient, asking politely, or being a dick.

[kevbone]

Bill said it best. “Treat people how you would want to be treated”. This is very simple.

[Cairns]

So my question is this, isn't it considered correct to stay off someone's route until they free it.

 

 

Yes.

 

But after that the consensus ends. And I think you should call it etiquette, not ethics. Let us not get above ourselves.

 

 

 

 

That is unless they take years to lead it or leave it for good? Recently someone told me to go and free a route that his friend had scrubbed the week before. I thought that was pretty rude and sure to cause bad feelings in a small community with very few climbers. This guy seems to be a bit of a glory hound always out for himself anyways.....

 

 

Y'know, glory might be a bit of an overstatement, too. Especially in a small community.

 

At the high end in truly difficult fields of endeavor the motivating factor is usually to get the grudging admiration of half a dozen or so peers. Not to awe anyone.

 

Myself, I just occasionally like to see my name in a guidebook, ever since it showed up in misleading fashion in the Gunks guide (Welcome to the Gunks).

 

Lately it occurred to me that I should try to get a route into the next Squamish guide. Over 6 or more years I spent a few days cleaning it, talked to a subcontractor about bolting it, worked it out on TR, and left it at that. Now it has been properly bolted and led by George from Climb On and Joe Turley and a guy from California. I would have liked the extra credit of the first lead ascent, but it will be fine if, when it gets into print, there is a note that says, "initial cleaning and TR ascent" by me. If it ever gets into print.

 

So, as someone said above, one way to go is to adopt the European approach and say, "Route opened by so-and-so." Except for ground-up onsight FAs.