Ken Nichols convicted and fined for bolt chopping

[Puma]

Post deleted by Puma

[RuMR]

fuck that...bolt the hell out of it...

[kevbone]

Bro....I am talking about crags that are being developed.

 

 

Let what go?

[climber4lyfe]

At my gym they have a bunch of threaed holes in a grid pattern in the rock so they can just put bolts wherever they need them. Seems that if we had similar threaded grids outside, people could put up and take down their own bolts on their climbs. I think this would make everyone happy!

[JosephH]

Remember.....respect those who came before you.

 

In some cases that simply isn't possible. Tim Olsen comes to mind, he littered the

place with an litany of trash placements and biner-breaking, heavy bronze

angle-bracket hangers. He could make your claim - but I do not respect it nor do I

respect a number of his routes.

[dmuja]

I climb, but am not a climber.

 

When I got into climbing, I had the impression that most climbers were certainly conservationists or even (that now dirty word) "environmentalists". Ive come to find out over time that I was wrong. An significant sector of sport climbers seems to be lacking in the fundamentals of the environmental ethics of climbing. All they seem concerned about (in addition to "access") is the narrow pursuit of pushing their personal numbers, or worse yet, notoriety. They generally don't give a fuck about style (related to ethics imo), but most importantly about what impact this narrow minded approach has on the rock or the environment. They are not conservationists by any means and they seem to have completely missed the edict of "leave no trace". You'd think that with the vast improvements of gear, beta, gyms and man made walls etc, this seeming need/desire to make the cliff/mountain/rock fit "my idea of how it should be" (as opposed to climbing what is there) would be less and less over time. Instead, the opposite has been true (as the continuing proliferation of bolted routes testifies to).

 

Unless the *ideal* of preservation or conservation (along with style) is re-introduced into climbing, unless the next generation is I dare say "educated" in strong environmental ethics and values, with such increasing impact becoming more obvious to "land managers", you will see more division within the "community", probably more "bolt wars" and more resistance to allowing climbing in many areas.

 

Climbers should foremost organize around the ideal of environmental preservation, conservation, education, history and style ("access" being secondary and naturally following imo. Ie, What are you "accessing" if your not conserving?) (Btw, if you so care about "accessing", what the fuck are ice climbers going to access after all the ice has melted? What about glacier hikers? - another reason to be urgently pro-conservation/environment.

 

To that end, "industry" wide (I hate the term) gyms would have to

play a large part in this, book authors, gear suppliers (REI should and others should stop selling bolt kit among other things), individual actions and education of coarse as well. One way or another the "modern" ethic (or lack there-of) really should change. Climbers in my view should all be environmentalists (that dirty word again). I once took it for granted that most were. I'll settle for an active majority at this point. To me, the biggest hypocracy isn't clipping a few bolts and wishing you weren't, its calling yourself a "climber" and having little or no regard for the environment.

 

If in the long term, stopping "bolt wars" and keeping "access" is what your after, then the big picture is (as yoda might say) what you must get. Of coarse this is slightly different than resting on calling oneself a "climber" and pushing the numbers. Its also one reason that although I climb, I don't usually refer to myself as such.

[olyclimber]

its refreshing to see someone with such high ideals, whose beliefs have not been crushed by the complications of dealing with the mindset of the masses.

 

I'm not a climber either, but I play one on a bulletin board.

[pope]

I climb, but am not a climber.

 

When I got into climbing, I had the impression that most climbers were certainly conservationists or even (that now dirty word) "environmentalists". Ive come to find out over time that I was wrong. An significant sector of sport climbers seems to be lacking in the fundamentals of the environmental ethics of climbing. All they seem concerned about (in addition to "access") is the narrow pursuit of pushing their personal numbers, or worse yet, notoriety. They generally don't give a fuck about style (related to ethics imo), but most importantly about what impact this narrow minded approach has on the rock or the environment. They are not conservationists by any means and they seem to have completely missed the edict of "leave no trace". You'd think that with the vast improvements of gear, beta, gyms and man made walls etc, this seeming need/desire to make the cliff/mountain/rock fit "my idea of how it should be" (as opposed to climbing what is there) would be less and less over time. Instead, the opposite has been true (as the continuing proliferation of bolted routes testifies to).

 

Unless the *ideal* of preservation or conservation (along with style) is re-introduced into climbing, unless the next generation is I dare say "educated" in strong environmental ethics and values, with such increasing impact becoming more obvious to "land managers", you will see more division within the "community", probably more "bolt wars" and more resistance to allowing climbing in many areas.

 

Climbers should foremost organize around the ideal of environmental preservation, conservation, education, history and style ("access" being secondary and naturally following imo. Ie, What are you "accessing" if your not conserving?) (Btw, if you so care about "accessing", what the fuck are ice climbers going to access after all the ice has melted? What about glacier hikers? - another reason to be urgently pro-conservation/environment.

 

To that end, "industry" wide (I hate the term) gyms would have to

play a large part in this, book authors, gear suppliers (REI should and others should stop selling bolt kit among other things), individual actions and education of coarse as well. One way or another the "modern" ethic (or lack there-of) really should change. Climbers in my view should all be environmentalists (that dirty word again). I once took it for granted that most were. I'll settle for an active majority at this point. To me, the biggest hypocracy isn't clipping a few bolts and wishing you weren't, its calling yourself a "climber" and having little or no regard for the environment.

 

If in the long term, stopping "bolt wars" and keeping "access" is what your after, then the big picture is (as yoda might say) what you must get. Of coarse this is slightly different than resting on calling oneself a "climber" and pushing the numbers. Its also one reason that although I climb, I don't usually refer to myself as such.

 

Now that's a five-star essay.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Bullshit!

 

Most experienced sport climbers I know care significantly about their surroundings/environment. Sport climbing, just like all forms of climbing, is a fantastic way to enjoy ones self in the great outdoors.

 

There is a big picture and a small picture, and dmuja et al. seem to have no grasp on their interrelation. The more climbers/hikers/cyclists etc. getting outside and using the resource, the more support that will exist for preserving the big picture resource. Sure some rockwalls will be tainted by lines of nearly invisible bolts, and some natural foliage will be decimated by the building of trails, but once these bolts and trails are established they will bring with them a user group who cares deeply about preserving that area from urban sprawl and other genuinely intrusive development. I especially call bullshit on Dmuja's half ass argument that sport climbing will somehow contribute to globabl warming. I would bet my life that the net environmental preservation value of a single sport climber (even considering something as simple as pro-environment voting) far exceeds (orders of magnitude) any sort of legitimate impact.

 

IMO bolts should be used in a means that maximizes the quality of a resource. This isnt to say we should bolt every line. In fact I see no problem with certain face climbs remaining as TR only for all but the boldest of climbers (provided there is reasonable access to the cliff top via easy natural lines or a walk around). I also strongly agree that sport climbs dont belong on certain crags (castle, scw, etc) and especially that protectable features should not be bolted in predominantly traditional crags.

 

BTW, I agree 100% with Dwayner's assessment that discussion of bolting with a range of view points is essential to the continued livelihood of our sport and the preservation of our more natural crags. New climbers likely won't learn this debate in the gym, and hopefully these threads at least catch the eye of the occasional new climber. When I first started climbing I really thought traditional climbing was overly risky (no way I'd ever climb over 5.6 on gear I told myself, too dangerous). I didn't fully understand why "they" couldn't bolt some cracks here and there to help out with the learning curve in a safe manner. Now I know better, and I'm sure other climbers will learn these things too.

[kevbone]

Bullshit!

 

Most experienced sport climbers I know care significantly about their surroundings/environment. Sport climbing, just like all forms of climbing, is a fantastic way to enjoy ones self in the great outdoors.

 

There is a big picture and a small picture, and dmuja et al. seem to have no grasp on their interrelation. The more climbers/hikers/cyclists etc. getting outside and using the resource, the more support that will exist for preserving the big picture resource. Sure some rockwalls will be tainted by lines of nearly invisible bolts, and some natural foliage will be decimated by the building of trails, but once these bolts and trails are established they will bring with them a user group who cares deeply about preserving that area from urban sprawl and other genuinely intrusive development. I especially call bullshit on Dmuja's half ass argument that sport climbing will somehow contribute to globabl warming. I would bet my life that the net environmental preservation value of a single sport climber (even considering something as simple as pro-environment voting) far exceeds (orders of magnitude) any sort of legitimate impact.

 

IMO bolts should be used in a means that maximizes the quality of a resource. This isnt to say we should bolt every line. In fact I see no problem with certain face climbs remaining as TR only for all but the boldest of climbers (provided there is reasonable access to the cliff top via easy natural lines or a walk around). I also strongly agree that sport climbs dont belong on certain crags (castle, scw, etc) and especially that protectable features should not be bolted in predominantly traditional crags.

 

BTW, I agree 100% with Dwayner's assessment that discussion of bolting with a range of view points is essential to the continued livelihood of our sport and the preservation of our more natural crags. New climbers likely won't learn this debate in the gym, and hopefully these threads at least catch the eye of the occasional new climber. When I first started climbing I really thought traditional climbing was overly risky (no way I'd ever climb over 5.6 on gear I told myself, too dangerous). I didn't fully understand why "they" couldn't bolt some cracks here and there to help out with the learning curve in a safe manner. Now I know better, and I'm sure other climbers will learn these things too.

 

 

Now that is a five star essay!

[sk]

The more I think about this issue, the more I begin to think that we need a new approach. Instead of trying to change the minds of so many sport climbers, we should educate leaders of environmental groups about the impacts of sport climbing and encourage them to lobby for laws banning bolts. Today's climbers have a lot more in common with ORV groups than bird watchers. Here's to rasing awareness.

 

the seria club is already working to this end. but their purpose is to not end sport climbing, but to end all climbing, as well as much hiking. the philosophy that was starting when i left the seria club 10 years ago was that going to enjoy nature was actualy damaging nature and that humans realy had no right to be outside the city. they didn't come right out and say this, but i could see it going that way. i still can. in a way they are right. we make trails we leave foot prints everywhere we go. we change things just by being there. you can go there if you like. I am not a huge fan of sprot climbing, but i do think it has it's place. my issue isn't with bolting, it is with over bolting. the day will come when the government will walk into our world. climbing and climbing area's will be governmentaly regulated and controled. this will happen because we can't all work together.

[pope]

Bullshit!

 

Most experienced sport climbers I know care significantly about their surroundings/environment. Sport climbing, just like all forms of climbing, is a fantastic way to enjoy ones self in the great outdoors.

 

There is a big picture and a small picture, and dmuja et al. seem to have no grasp on their interrelation. The more climbers/hikers/cyclists etc. getting outside and using the resource, the more support that will exist for preserving the big picture resource. Sure some rockwalls will be tainted by lines of nearly invisible bolts, and some natural foliage will be decimated by the building of trails, but once these bolts and trails are established they will bring with them a user group who cares deeply about preserving that area from urban sprawl and other genuinely intrusive development. I especially call bullshit on Dmuja's half ass argument that sport climbing will somehow contribute to globabl warming. I would bet my life that the net environmental preservation value of a single sport climber (even considering something as simple as pro-environment voting) far exceeds (orders of magnitude) any sort of legitimate impact.

 

IMO bolts should be used in a means that maximizes the quality of a resource. This isnt to say we should bolt every line. In fact I see no problem with certain face climbs remaining as TR only for all but the boldest of climbers (provided there is reasonable access to the cliff top via easy natural lines or a walk around). I also strongly agree that sport climbs dont belong on certain crags (castle, scw, etc) and especially that protectable features should not be bolted in predominantly traditional crags.

 

BTW, I agree 100% with Dwayner's assessment that discussion of bolting with a range of view points is essential to the continued livelihood of our sport and the preservation of our more natural crags. New climbers likely won't learn this debate in the gym, and hopefully these threads at least catch the eye of the occasional new climber. When I first started climbing I really thought traditional climbing was overly risky (no way I'd ever climb over 5.6 on gear I told myself, too dangerous). I didn't fully understand why "they" couldn't bolt some cracks here and there to help out with the learning curve in a safe manner. Now I know better, and I'm sure other climbers will learn these things too.

 

 

Now that is a five star essay!

 

Gee, trogdon, why be so exclusive? You want bikers, hikers and sport climbers to establish trails and grid-bolt walls so that large numbers of enthusiasts can come enjoy the great outdoors. My suggestion is that if you can't enjoy the outdoors without clipping up a line of bolts, maybe you don't really enjoy the outdoors. Because your same line of logic ("let's encourage the crowds to get out there by first 'improving' the outdoors") must mean there's room for our ORV buddies to rip through those alpine meadows and toss a couple of beer cans, then get back home to write e-mails to Al Gore about what a swell time they had. By another line of logic promoted in this thread, whoever gets there first should be able to do just about whatever they want. We're supposed to respect that and call it "art". Now, look at the following image and tell me:

 

(1) Is this art, if this fellow got there first?

(2) Shouldn't we be thrilled that he's enjoying the mountains, if it means he's going to fight development and sprawl (part of the "big picture" you described above)?

(3) In what way is this any different than sport climbing?

 

 

 

 

[ashw_justin]

Well, if it were like sport climbing, there would poles cemented into the ground every 50 feet, so that you never had to worry about finding a winch point. But it's a false comparison since there is enough consensus to ban motorized travel in many places. Sport climbing hasn't gotten ugly enough to be banned. It's really just up to 'us' until then. Real democracy's a bitch. Keep up the good work.

[billcoe]

You have to pull a pic from another continent to make your point Pope? The snorkel, even if you didn't see the gum trees, is a dead giveaway that pic is of Australia, where your very survival may mean having a vehical like that and in fact that bloke may only be driving home right now and praying it doesn't rain.

 

Uhhh what was your point ? Oh:

 

(1) Is this art, if this fellow got there first?

2) Shouldn't we be thrilled that he's enjoying the mountains, if it means he's going to fight development and sprawl (part of the "big picture" you described above)?

(3) In what way is this any different than sport climbing?

 

1) This may be survival.

2) You don't know.

3) What, driving home from work? Uhhh, come on be real.

[pope]

You have to pull a pic from another continent to make your point Pope? The snorkel, even if you didn't see the gum trees, is a dead giveaway that pic is of Australia, where your very survival may mean having a vehical like that and in fact that bloke may only be driving home right now and praying it doesn't rain.

 

Uhhh what was your point ? Oh:

 

(1) Is this art, if this fellow got there first?

2) Shouldn't we be thrilled that he's enjoying the mountains, if it means he's going to fight development and sprawl (part of the "big picture" you described above)?

(3) In what way is this any different than sport climbing?

 

1) This may be survival.

2) You don't know.

3) What, driving home from work? Uhhh, come on be real.

 

Nice end run. The aroma of your efforts suggests maybe you attended clown school with JayB. BTW the image comes from the website of a fellow who enjoys recreational off-road travel, and we can assume that is the purpose of his travels in this photograph. So....you're invited to answer the questions.

[billcoe]

You've never been to Australia have you?

 

BTW, I have the distinct feeling that you just like to argue. Could be wrong about that....

Edited July 23, 2007 by billcoe

[pope]

1) This may be survival.

2) You don't know.

3) What, driving home from work? Uhhh, come on be real.

 

Probably not. link

[Dechristo]

what a dink

[kevbone]

You can’t possibly be comparing this.......

 

 

to this? This is a picture of me and a friend on IB. Well a new version of it. We are not clipping bolts here. Actually we are just alpine climbing on new terrain. All natural gear, thank God you don’t have a problem with that!

 

 

or this?

 

 

Because if you are......you need to get your head examined.

 

 

And…..I would rather see the guy tearing up the road in the woods than a strip mall.

 

[billcoe]

Yes, in keeping with Popes direction, first you have a single bolt, which soon evolves into this:

 

 

 

We have seen this happen repeatedly throughout the world, including Austrailia - like seen here in Dubai and Chicaco:

 

 

Maybe this will happen at your crag.

 

right Pope?

______________________________________________________________

 

BTW, I thought that what Joseph said earlier is pretty spot on. Especially the lack of communication part.

 

I'm excluding the Ken Nichols conviction as those were not public lands, but it seems to me that if someone can just show up (and I know I've been guilty of this) and just sticks in a bolt, then anyone else has an equal right, if they are so moved, to remove said bolt. ON PUBLIC LAND.

 

But then how do you get beyond this?

 

Probably by not sticking in a bolt to begin with.

 

However, in an area where bolts traditionally predominate, perhaps for years and years, since the crag was first found by climbers, should (of course you can, as Ken Nichols demonstrated) BUT SHOULD anyone just choose to start yanking bolts by flat fiat because they, and they alone want to do that? Who would show up at Smith Rocks and make "To Bolt or Not To Be" just be "Not to Be"? It's a crazy thought, and would be condemned universally.

 

Bolts have a place IMO, and unfortunatly, opinions is what everyone else has, and it's all over the board.

[pope]

I'm excluding the Ken Nichols conviction as those were not public lands, but it seems to me that if someone can just show up (and I know I've been guilty of this) and just sticks in a bolt, then anyone else has an equal right, if they are so moved, to remove said bolt. ON PUBLIC LAND.

 

But then how do you get beyond this?

 

Probably by not sticking in a bolt to begin with.

 

 

However, in an area where bolts traditionally predominate, perhaps for years and years, since the crag was first found by climbers, should (of course you can, as Ken Nichols demonstrated) BUT SHOULD anyone just choose to start yanking bolts by flat fiat because they, and they alone want to do that? Who would show up at Smith Rocks and make "To Bolt or Not To Be" just be "Not to Be"? It's a crazy thought, and would be condemned universally.

 

Climbing existed at Smith, Vantage and North Bend long before this nonsense commenced. Clearly the problem is communication...and leadership. When bolts go in next to cracks, when old-school leads get retro bolted, when big "alpine sport climbs" and power-drilled routes go up in Wilderness areas, every single climber...and especially groups pretending to represent Washington climbers, should not only denounce such activities, these groups should organize efforts to erase the "creations". Instead, the AF and the WCC, as well as nearly every sport climber on this site, organize to defend virtually every bolt put in by every a-hole who owns a Bosch (probably because some of the brass in these groups are responsible for wilderness-area bolting, and because they're attempting to create the illusion that climbers are united on this topic and all of us love the B_LT's).

[billcoe]

Climbing existed at Smith, Vantage and North Bend long before this nonsense commenced.

 

I first climbed at Smith Rocks in @ 1972. There were not many routes, but there were bolts then, 1/4" ers.

 

 

Clearly the problem is communication...and leadership. When bolts go in next to cracks, when old-school leads get retro bolted, when big "alpine sport climbs" and power-drilled routes go up in Wilderness areas, every single climber...and especially groups pretending to represent Washington climbers, should not only denounce such activities, these groups should organize efforts to erase the "creations". Instead, the AF and the WCC, as well as nearly every sport climber on this site, organize to defend virtually every bolt put in by every a-hole who owns a Bosch (probably because some of the brass in these groups are responsible for wilderness-area bolting, and because they're attempting to create the illusion that climbers are united on this topic and all of us love the B_LT's).

 

Nice rant, except I didn't see any examples, such things as you describe as bolting cracks and old school leads re-bolted are very rare and are condemned already. So you are left with perhaps 1 maybe 2 examples in your rant above.

 

I think that climbing, for me, is about many things that encompase both the physical and the mental.......all the bolts in the world do not have the impact which a single road represents, but you still drive do you not?

 

I do not think that means we do not take putting a road, or a bolt, with anything less than serious study and care: something which we most likely agree does seem to be somewhat lacking in the next generation of climbers.

[kevbone]

Nice rant, except I didn't see any examples, such things as you describe as bolting cracks and old school leads re-bolted are very rare and are condemned already. So you are left with perhaps 1 maybe 2 examples in your rant above.

 

I think that climbing, for me, is about many things that encompase both the physical and the mental.......all the bolts in the world do not have the impact which a single road represents, but you still drive do you not?

 

I do not think that means we do not take putting a road, or a bolt, with anything less than serious study and care: something which we most likely agree does seem to be somewhat lacking in the next generation of climbers.

 

Now that is five star essay!

[pope]

I first climbed at Smith Rocks in @ 1972. There were not many routes, but there were bolts then, 1/4" ers.

 

How many of those bolts were placed on rappel? How completely bolt-dependent routes were there in 1972? How many 40-foot wide walls in the Dihedrals had three sport routes with a bolted arete for an endpiece? I'm glad you brought this up. I imagine there exists a large number of young climbers who believe the bolts at Smith have always been there, perhaps as a result of strange geologic forces (maybe they evolved from Obsidian).

 

 

Nice rant, except I didn't see any examples, such things as you describe as bolting cracks and old school leads re-bolted are very rare and are condemned already. So you are left with perhaps 1 maybe 2 examples in your rant above.

 

When these issues come up (Gee read the forums here for several high-profile examples, some of which are still being discussed), the "leadership" in groups that claim to represent climbers' interests have not condemned the route/bolts in question. In fact, one gentleman from the WCC called and pleaded with me (for most of an hour) to cease discussing bolting on this site (think I was banned shortly thereafter). He was pretty sure that unable to police the problem, land managers would be left with no other choice than to lock the very gate to Darrington! What would have been refreshing would have been to hear, "We're aware of the problem and are working to have to illegal bolts removed." What would have been nice is a phone call inviting me to attend the secret Infinite Bliss meetings, so that more than one perspective could have been presented.

 

Anyway, there's your leadership.

 

 

I think that climbing, for me, is about many things that encompase both the physical and the mental.......all the bolts in the world do not have the impact which a single road represents, but you still drive do you not?

 

I'd really love never to have to read this argument again. Allow me to illustrate how ridiculous it is by extrapolating its logic. This argument essentially says, "Our little problem over here, what we're doing, is quite OK, 'cause there's something worse going on over there." How convenient! Let's suppose a thief robs my neighbor's house. Then, by your logic, that makes it OK for me to walk out of the convenience store with a 6-pack of beer hiding in my pants.

[Raindawg]

Instead, the AF and the WCC, as well as nearly every sport climber on this site, organize to defend virtually every bolt put in by every a-hole who owns a Bosch (probably because some of the brass in these groups are responsible for wilderness-area bolting, and because they're attempting to create the illusion that climbers are united on this topic and all of us love the B_LT's).

 

Somebody say "B_LT's"? Careful dude! I heard that THE MAN is catchin' on and already doing internet searches on BOL's and OLT's....it's only a matter of time before they learn that not everybody agrees!

 

 

I see that Mr. Billcoe brings up the old smokescreen of ...."ya travel on roads, don't ya!"

 

Here's the alternative to no trails and roads:

 

By the way, how many jokers on this site asking for information on how to effectively drill holes are aware of, or care about, the ethical issues? I'd say not many...because drilling has become the status quo. As I've stated many times before, I believe every individual bolt should be an ethical decision and placed only as a last resort. Drilling at will seems to be the norm now....a blank piece of rock seems for many to be an invitation to "create" a "route". Why not follow a natural line and take your gear home with you when you're done? Why not top-rope the majority of routes at places like Vantage? Why not just leave the rock alone if the alternative is to drill the snot out of it and leave a permanent metallic trail? Sport climbing is a disaster!

 

By the way, it ain't just me, "pope", and a handful of others living around here that think so. In the bigger picture...go ahead, ask Yvon Chouinard, Rheinhold Messner, and Doug Scott....(now let's wait for the "youngsters" - if they've ever heard of these guys - to call them old-school, burned-out losers.)