The Black Diamond manipulative campaign

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by specialed:

Is it me or is the BD catalog looking more and more like J. a Crew catalog with ice tools. And now you can buy your own helmut sticker pack for only $9.95. Sellout?

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Never seen a J. Crew catalog (who buys that stuff, anyway), but sellout? No way. BD has always made stickers, given out liberally by their folks. Guess now they are offering them as a regular item for order.

Following BD and Patagonia catalogs since the 70's, they have always been at the fore of graphic and publishing design. I just got in the mail last Saturday the Spring catalog: it's got the same killer photos, lists of spec's, and even more articles. This is all stuff they've had before (read the reference to the '72 catalog and Doug Robinson's landmark article that began the whole clean climbing revolution). The catalog just seems to be much BIGGER; they've got more product than ever before. Sure beats 8.5 x 11 photocopied paper!

pin

[erik]

IS THAT WHAT HAPPEND??? DOUBT IT!!!!

COME MAN USE SOME COMMON SENSE, IF YOU DONT HAVE SPARE GLOVES, THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM AND IF YOU WERE USING THE DRY TOOL GLOVES IN -40 TEMPS, I AM SURE OYU WOULD HAVE A LOT OF OTHER PROBLEMS THEN YOUR GLOVES, LIKE GETTING OUT OF BED......SHEEIT......

LIKE I SAID BEFORE ~YAWN~

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by pindude:

Can you absorb this without acting like a baby and respond appropriately?

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No. And now you're lying, icebaby. If you lost your fingers, just what are you typing with?

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

[IceIceBaby]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

IS THAT WHAT HAPPEND??? DOUBT IT!!!!

COME MAN USE SOME COMMON SENSE, IF YOU DONT HAVE SPARE GLOVES, THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM AND IF YOU WERE USING THE DRY TOOL GLOVES IN -40 TEMPS, I AM SURE OYU WOULD HAVE A LOT OF OTHER PROBLEMS THEN YOUR GLOVES, LIKE GETTING OUT OF BED......SHEEIT......

LIKE I SAID BEFORE ~YAWN~

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Eric,That was hypothetical situation But the question remainsBD makes the claims that the gear will work under these kinds of conditions I have been proven wrong under much milder conditions Where is the quality that has been advertised and if there were stricter controls, this would not happen

[Gordonb]

If you require 0% defects why in the hell are you buying from BD or any other manufacturer! For a mass producer to be competetive they have to keep costs down and that means some defective product. The good companies will step up and make good on their defects. Until you have talked to CS your whining is just whining.

[Figger_Eight]

I can imagine what the hard men from the fifties and sixties who were pioneering routes in wool gloves and nylon parkas reading this whiny boo-hoo crap. It probably took Vanilla Iceicewoosy longer to write the original post than to call customer service and get a new pair.

[freeclimb9]

Iceicebaby, watch out for BD first runs.

Black Diamond --as well as Chouinard Equipment-- IMHO, have often used the first (somtimes even second and third) production runs as their final product testing step. How many products have they done this with? I've lost count, but some notable ones are:

Kevlar accessory cord. Once touted as a miracle fixing line. When it was determined that the core fibers would break into dust with repeated cycling (a couple people had to die first), Chouinard put the stuff up at sale prices rather than make a product recall. I'll never forget that move.

Carbon Black Prophets. The heads fell off. Not good.

Android leashes. They had a couple design flaws. The spontaneous unclipping had a tendency to un-nerve people. Sort of like the head falling off the Carbon Black Prophet.

And there's more (check out http://www.bdel.com/bd/news.html for current equipment issues).

But once they get a design worked out, it works well. I used to work at a testing lab in Ventura that would routinely check batches of oval carabiners. They broke at fairly consistent forces well above those quoted in specs (but not in consistent locations. If you want to see consistency, DMM sets that standard). I have friends who work at BD, and I trust their workmanship. But I also wait awhile to purchase new designs.

And if you want the dope dry-tooling gloves, you got to go with the Vinylove (http://www.seamar.com/atlas/460.html)

[W]

daylward turned me on to Vinylove's- these things are available at Outdoor Emporium near Lincoln Towing and REI. $3.99. If you put a pair of lightweight fleece gloves under them you have a great setup- that works. They also make them in a version that has a furry liner built in- these are about $13. My partner uses those and loves them.

Save your money! Vinylove is the secret weapon.

[IceIceBaby]

quote:

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Originally posted by Figger Eight:

I can imagine what the hard men from the fifties and sixties who were pioneering routes in wool gloves and nylon parkas reading this whiny boo-hoo crap. It probably took Vanilla Iceicewoosy longer to write the original post than to call customer service and get a new pair.

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By all means,Go ahead and climb with the equipment that u described with wool and what not….However when I pay for my gear with hard owned MY MONEY I will expect to buy quality I don't go the gear shop thinking to myself how can I spend my hard owned $$ on the shitest gear available (that is your mind set Figger Eight)By the way Figger Eight spineless little shit if only you had to put with a week in the Israeli army then we will see who is the woos

BTWIs BD is one of the sponsors on this site b/c that is the only way I can explain your position

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ]

[Country_Jake]

your not going to get anywhere with this Icebaby...We are all BD buffs... Shit half of my gear is BD... oh and specialed since when did J.Crew have leamers rockclimbing in their catolog...

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

Shit, that sucks about the "F" grade.With regard to the Kevlar cord recall, I lived it. What would I quote as a bibliographic source? I'm not familiar with the entry format. All this stuff went down in 85, or 86, and I don't take that much gingko biloba to recall expedition details on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed. I do remember that Great Pacific Iron Works reccommended kevlar cord to me in 85 for slinging hexes, by 87 that was considered to be unwise because of the proven danger, and Chouinard Equipment sold off their remaining kevlar at low, low prices around that same time. Bluewater performed testing on nylon, kevlar and spectra cord around that time, also. The kevlar turned to powder after cycling over a 10mm rotating bar. These test results were published in one of the mags, Summit, R&I, or Climbing. I can't remember which. Believe it, or not.

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Dude, for your sake, I would like you to come up with some independent citable source, stating it was proven Chouinard/Black Diamond's Kevlar cord was at fault for these supposed deaths. Hell, I've still got my old Chouinard hexes strung with Kevlar, and I remember the Blue Water tests and BD's change from Kevlar to Gemini cord. "Turned to powder?" Doesn't sound to me like an objective scientific term describing the result of a test, and I don't recall myself that was what happened to the Kevlar. I doubt seriously BD is at fault, even if deaths occured. And if deaths did occur, there must be SOMETHING you can provide as a source of that, although it would not necessarily tell us if BD were "at fault." I would take as a source a copy of an archived AP newstory, or a statement from BD themselves. Just saying: you recalled details "...on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed."--doesn't cut it. To blame death on a company without supporting evidence is potentially libelous. Be careful when you're slinging words. It's unfortunate many aren't on this type of forum. Grade of F still stands.

pindude

[Peter_Puget]

Funny thing this thread started with positive comments directed at the old GPIW and related companies. Now it seems as tho the old Chouinard owned company is being slammed and yet the BD defenders think the new company is being slammed. Freeclimb seems to be complaining about the old company.

I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company. The old Chouinard owned company, despite the old man's assertions of quality, made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued. Eg: the old blue handled piton/ice hammer. I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out. After hearing that I figured anyone who thinks that YC deserves respect was a total goofball. Imagine selling as an ice tool/piton hammer something you knew had defect that caused it to break. Call me a liar Pindude but in fact it is the truth. It also has nothing to do with the modern Black Diamond. Just adding my rant to the world.

[Rodchester]

Oooops!!!!!

See Below (I know I suck)

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

[Rodchester]

freeclimb9:

"(a couple people had to die first)"

That is a big finger I see pointing at BD. Who died, where, when, some details please.

Some fixed line broke, on some expedition? One guy died? Sounds like a suburban legend to me.

This one time...I was at band camp.

Last week it was go ahead and girth hitch wire stoppers/nuts and you will be fine....now it is BD products kill people?

Vanilla Ice:

"put with a week in the Israeli army then we will see who is the woos"

You really are a whiner. Ooooh the Israeli Army...think that is going to impress the posters here? Did you only last a week? Oh we are impressed.

There are WAY too many vets on this page to play that card. Put it away before your ass gets smoked.

And one more thing:

"I've still got my old Chouinard hexes strung with Kevlar"

I would recommend reslinging them. Not because Kevlar is inherently dangerous...but the fact is that Kevlar does wear considerably faster. This is especially true if the cord is tied and retied multiple times. Remember, it is a brittle that can stop a sub caliber bullet, but not a knife (when used in bullet proof vests that is).

[JoeTool]

BTW, I noticed that after I posted my test results on his girth hitch of death, freeclimb never responded.

[Rodchester]

JT:

No doubt. I called Bullshit on him too, and he simply ignored my request.

[freeclimb9]

quote:

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Originally posted by pindude:

Dude, for your sake, I would like you to come up with some independent citable source, stating it was proven Chouinard/Black Diamond's Kevlar cord was at fault for these supposed deaths. Hell, I've still got my old Chouinard hexes strung with Kevlar, and I remember the Blue Water tests and BD's change from Kevlar to Gemini cord. "Turned to powder?" Doesn't sound to me like an objective scientific term describing the result of a test, and I don't recall myself that was what happened to the Kevlar. I doubt seriously BD is at fault, even if deaths occured. And if deaths did occur, there must be SOMETHING you can provide as a source of that, although it would not necessarily tell us if BD were "at fault." I would take as a source a copy of an archived AP newstory, or a statement from BD themselves. Just saying: you recalled details "...on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed."--doesn't cut it. To blame death on a company without supporting evidence is potentially libelous. Be careful when you're slinging words. It's unfortunate many aren't on this type of forum. Grade of F still stands.

pindude

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I don't feel obligated to prove anything to you, pindude. You're skepticism may be warranted, but your manner is crude. For my sake? Don't veil a threat, if that's what that is. FYI, Chouinard never made rope, or cord. They did distribute for Beal. That's probably what's on your hexes. Chouinard Equipment did sell off the kevlar cord back in the day. I don't know what brand cord failed as a fixed line. I never put a brand association with it. But, I challenge you to find anyone who would now reccomend kevlar for a fixed line. Why is that? Hmmmm. Beal's website (http://www.beal-planet.com) states for Aramide (i.e. kevlar) lines that it "must never be used as fixed line." Why is this statement put on their website? Coincidence? Just one more question for you, pindude, why do you think that BD only sells wired (emphasis on WIRED, not threadable) hexes these days? Love that kevlar! Bring on the libel lawsuits, one and all!

[jkrueger]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

Iceicebaby, watch out for BD first runs.

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Gives new meaning to being on the "bleeding edge" of technology.

[erik]

okay freeclimb, could you please embelish on your statement of a kevlar fixed line failing on an expediation....i would like know as personal knowledge to myself, cus one the best ways to learn is from others mistakes....

and also i have tracked your side steps to every response to your statements......do you work for the church down there or the good state of utah????

[kevin]

Iceicebaby

thank you for the recent review of your BD equipment. I will add it to my archive of information. Someday, I will probably hear another negative review of BD equipment. If, in the future, I have negative experiences of my own with BD , I will stop purchasing their equipment.

Thank you very much for you opinion

kevin

[AlpineK]

Even the best company with the best intentions can make mistakes. If they make enough mistakes and don't deal with the problem(s) then people won't buy their stuff. Ice, your sounding pretty lonely with your bitching.

It sounds like you got a bad pair of gloves. Too bad. Climbing is full of danger, so sure you could have lost your hand, but you decided to go ice climbing. No one held a gun to your head.

As a business owner, I can tell you first hand that mistakes happen and things don't always go the way you planned. Thats why the insurance industry is so big.

Why don't you stop bitching and call cs; get yourself a new pair of gloves and go ice climbing. If they break again and you loose your hand to frostbite maybe you could start a huge class action law suit and drive BD out of business.

[freeclimb9]

JoeTool and Rodchester,

email me directly if you think I'm full of it. We can discuss your comments better that way. You're only a click away from my email, and three from my home address.

[Jedi]

Yeah, people make mistakes and you get a bad deal sometimes. Let us know what C.S. does about it.

Jeeze, even NASA goofs up, be glad you do not fly for them.

[Rodchester]

Vanilla Ice:

AlpineK is right on...nothing wrong with a little venting...but call CS and give them a chance.

freeclimb9:

"Why is this statement put on their website? Coincidence?"

That was you on the grassy knoll, wasn't it? If that is all you got, you look pretty bad. There is no boogey man.

[JoeTool]

Freeclimb;

quote:

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I've been in this climbing game for twenty years, and have rarely heard, or read, of gear failures. Do have an illustrative example of a webbing failure?

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Freeclimb, I see NO reason to take the fact that you are full of shit into a private e-mail discussion.You don't seem to have any problem posting here. You asked for an example in the real world, and I gave you one.Your only response after that, was some flippant remark about your fishing!I will not take a discussion into e-mail. I f you have somthing to say to me or rodchester say it here. Flame on