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Dangers at Neverland

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Recently I climbed at Neverland Far side x38, some of the best example of sport rock in the area especially the Hook a stellar hunk of rock, steep jugs, and solid rock.

I hesitated to post this but I thought my fellow climbers should be aware of some of the dangers there.

There are bolt placements with a set up for a needless bad fall.

Wedge anchor bolts that no nipple or tread is showing, this means that there is only one tread or less holding the hanger on.

Needless amount of razor sharp edges left to shred your rope or you.

By the amount of blood on one route someone has already been sliced.

I’m not trying to offend anyone but if made public, maybe the dangers could be fixed or at least you will be aware.


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And I am inquiring about yours. I am curious what the jump from, "What do you expect from someone that has little experience route setting." led to , "So you personally know the climbing and FA resume of all the individuals involved in the development of the area? "

And no, you did not mention replacement or repairing anything; but that is the context of this coversation. So help me put the peices together here, I am slow to understand.

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i think that ilookeddown's comment was directed at FFCS's comment "What do you expect from someone that has little experience route setting. "


how would FFCS know the experience of the route setters? some of them have put up quite a few routes in the area.


having climbed in the area a bit myself it might be worth noting that some of the rock is pretty chossy and it may have been difficult to get could bolt placements.


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I'm talking specifically about Bruce, and yes, Bruce is a relatively new climber with little experience at setting routes. There is a reason that development hasn't taken place at Neverland prior to Bruce showing up, no one else wanted to put up routes on that choss. Not trying to pick fights just some common sense honest observations.

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I'm not sure why I need to comment on this but I do think it worthy of note that there are some tricks to the trade, some aesthetic judgment and some calculation is involved, and to do things right often takes quite a bit of hard work. I'd say it in fact IS generally difficult to set a good route even if you are rap bolting an 80 foot crag. I'd not sure that negates PP's point in this particular discussion, though.

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I would not defend Neverland routes, but if you don't like them don't climb them. Period.


Matt and Peter,

I suspect we can all agree that while any bozo can slap bolts willy nilly, rarely do quality routes result from that approach. Creating great routes requires vision and a variety of skills (unless you are just following nature's cracks).

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I agree with Willy Nilly what I don't agree with is that there is much skill involved in developing routes. In fact too much "experience" can be a problem.



The attached graph is the result of an incredibly detailed study. A related study revealed a similar curve when route quality was related to developer effort.


Edited by Peter_Puget
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