i feel so warm inside! dedicated to pope

[erik]

http://www.tribnet.com/

you'll find what i'm talking about.

[Dwayner]

Erik! Thanks for the hot tip! I checked it out and I think I'M GOING TO PUKE!!!!!!!!

My favorite quotation:

"From the climbers' standpoint, I'd say it's one of the more exemplary climbing areas that I've been to," Burdo said."

I don't know who that guy is, but someone should tell him that Exit 38 is one of the most pathetic AND goofiest places to climb on the West Coast!!! Let´s all pitch in and buy our brother a bus ticket to Leavenworth, or maybe even to Tacoma for Spire Rock!

And what's wid the leaving that legacy for future generations long after your creative self is gone???!!! I don't like to be so harsh, ladies and gentleman....but I think....I gonna....LOSE MY LUNCH!!!...........See I told you so.....and I just missed soiling the keyboard!!!

Boy, that Exit 38 sure sounds cool!!! And I'm glad the newspaper was so kind to provide detailed directions so more folk can come out and have their minds contaminated with the idea that grid bolting on crap rock is the norm and a good thing.

_ Dwayner, running for the mop and paper towels.

[nerdom]

Ughh!

But what a fantastic solution to the dichotomy between sportos and tradniks:

relegate all sport climbing to road-cut!!!

[Cpt.Caveman]

Personally I am not about slamming Burdo and if you choose to then fine. You should be happy he is bolting all those sport routes so as not to let the masses on your crack climbs in Lworth. I also like quite a few of his routes and will educate that he is no pushover of a climber. He has done several alpine 1sts in WA that looked to be pretty worthy.

I don't like sporto climbing that much but I have to do it sometimes and I am happy there is some around for me to hop on during those times.

[pope]

That's the theory, I know. Bolt up some choss and the whirlies clear out of Index. I used to think this way, but too many people are being introduced to climbing at a bolt-grid cliff, and to them, bolts aren't ugly, but appear to be an improvement to the alpine environment. Soon as these guys show up in Leavenworth (and they will), the mess spreads like a rash on sorority girl.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I agree wit dat Pope. Sheeit Right on Right on.

[hakioawa]

I wonder if it is really the grid bolting. I can't say I'm totally against bolting. I think repel anchors save a lot of trees, not to mention lives. But what if Black Diamond or metolius came out with some new super easy to place face climbing pro. Like a suction cup or a magnet. Something that was as easy to place as to clip a bolt. That would blur the line a little between trad (can I still use that word?) and sport.

Would that change any attitudes? People would still wear pink spandex and climb at exit 38. I'm guessing no. I think the arguement is much more about the culture, not just a few shiny pieces on stainless steel.

[erik]

hak, i would hardly say it has too much to do with culture, we are all americans and share the same basic principals...excess!

think about this....who is going to go and replace all these aging bolts? sure they are fine now, but ten years...twenty years....this issue i am sure is not considered by some route setters. i mean could you imagine going back to a grid bolted cliff with the intent to replace them all! burdo is dedicated man, but should we expect him to maintain all this! someone has too, and who is it going to be? sure as hell won't be me, i will be enjoying the art of natural protection!

the cost, the wrist pain ohhh the travisty of grid bolting!

 

[Peter_Puget]

The Captn’s comment shows the rub: Brian has by continual grandstanding and playing up to his “cult of personality” become synonymous with 38/Si. It is this close identification that actual works against honest debate and discussion. Any criticism of 38/Si seems like a petty personal attack on Brian. His cult of personality jumps in with a personal defense - “Gee he is a nice guy” or “I like his routes.” You know what? I agree Brian has put up some great routes and some not so great routes. I have even had a great time hanging out with him. What I resent is his constant playing off the media and the continued hyping of 38/Si. These are two sides of the same coin. Incorporating by reference here the recent additions to the “Greed” thread and then adding Brians comments in the newspaper describing 38 as “exemplary”. {Websters: Exemplary 1.a) Serving as a pattern b) Deserving of imitation. While I often get the feeling that using the English language for BB is like riding a bucking bronco, here he hits the nail on the head and means exactly what he says.} Clearly 38/Si aren’t fantastic climbing areas. The majority of posters here and I am sure the majority of those climbing there would agree to that. This isn’t to say that there aren’t fun climbs there. In fact I was there last week; I will be there again next week I am sure. What such propaganda does is create a false impression of climbing and climbing areas amongst the non climbing population, the new climbers, and the view point of land managers. Anyone with a dissenting opinion is somehow sullied by the close identification of BB with the areas – “Look what a petty personal attack he/she is making.” Perceptions have consequences! Facts only do to the extent they agree with our perceptions.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Look Dicknecks I don't know this BB guy and don't associate with any of his crew or followers\cronies. So get the fuck off your high horses and see my comments for what they are --> opinion. Open your minds a bit. I don't give a fuck about the media or what they have to say about climbing since it is always wrong. Peter I am not sure what you are exactly trying to imply (or not imply) about me here but just come out and say something if you don't like my comments. If you don't like the routes out there go fucking chop them.

[Peter_Puget]

Yeow! Captn I actually agreed for the most part with your comments! But honestly didn't adress them in my short discourse. Your comment was referenced merely because its reference to BB. I wasn't placing you in any camp or or group. And since I clearly stated I like many of the routes at 38, it looks like the Bronco threw you too

 

[Eerie]

Hey, I climbed at 38 last night and had a good time. Isn't that what its all about anyways?! Drop the self-righteous, judgemental attitudes, look deep within yourselves and I'm willing to bet you'll see alot more people having fun too.

Oh, and I think anyone that knows BB will agree he is a very peculiar fellow.

[pope]

I could have a good time doing all kinds of things: firing a gun within city limits, messin'around with your wife, beating up nice girls at a Mardi Gras celebration downtown, driving my motorcycle down the sidewalk,etc.

Enjoyment is not justification when other factors must be considered, like the fact that cliffs are PUBLIC space and, therefore, should be used in such a way that doesn't step on others' toes. Like the fact that bolts damage rock and do so permanently.

To you, enjoyment is enough motivation to bolt up a sport route, or to endorse this practice by clipping those bolts. Your enjoyment comes at a cost to me, however, and that's why we need to get back to the idea that cliffs are a limited, public resource which should be preserved.

[DPS]

Get real Pope,

Do the bolts at Exit 38 really detract from your enjoyment of the area considering the cliffs are basically road cuts and there is a major freeway, railroad and gravel quarry all within a stones throw of the place? If ever there was an 'appropriate' place for bolts, Exit 38 certainly has to be it.

Public spaces are ALWAYS managed in such a way that they step on someone's toes. I would rather not see logging on public lands, but it still happens. Hell, some people feel that climbing of any kind should not be allowed on public lands, look at the Joshua Tree superintendant.

The 'cost to you' of someone clipping bolts somewhere is so incredibly tiny compared to the cost of YOU living in America, using electricity, eating meat and driving cars on the rest of the world so get off of your high horse and get some perspective,

Respectfully,

Dan

[This message has been edited by danielpatricksmith (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Cpt.Caveman]

Damn Pope gets punked?

[pope]

Justify one sin by the existence of another.... Extrapolate that kind of logic and, let's see, Timmy McVeigh's heinous deed, put into perspective, is far less evil than the actions of Adolf, Pol Pot, and Milosovich. Guess if I bitch about McVeigh, somebody (Daniel) is going to point out that greater evil exists, and so Pope should "get real" and view things with "perspective".

This "perspective" argument amounts to distraction from consideration of the question at hand. Just as when sport-boys accuse "tradsters" of being arrogant or less than congenial, right in the middle of a bolting ethics discussion. What does it have to do with bolting ethics? Even if these statements hold water, what you've got here is a very large vessel, but not a lot of water.

Now, IF (that's a big "if") sport climbing has a place in this world, I absolutely agree that Exit 38 is a good place for it. While I can enjoy climbing there, I am concerned that many who do climb there think this trashy approach to climbing should exist where we old timers hang. In a perfect world, people would respect the tradition of a place like the Castle in Leavenworth and spare this beautifl cliff the dubious practices found at Exit 38.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Just looking from the outside here but hey Pope why do you give a shit if someone bolts the choss? Also if you are so a gainst bolts have or do you currently clip them? Again why are you not on a vengeance chopping spree? What do you rap from (meaning shame on you for rapping from bolts or pins)

Also, you have some interesting topics to say the least but sometimes you are just plain ole full of shit. I love the entertainment keep it up!

[DPS]

[This message has been edited by danielpatricksmith (edited 06-22-2001).]

[jblakley]

Wow this is certainly a hot topic. Pope while I respect your ethics and your opinions I don't respect your desire to change everything to your liking. Your comparison to beating up girls at Mardi Gras is poor and dissapointing and this mode of logic could be used to pretty much justify or crucify anything.

Some abortion opponents feel perfectly justified in killing an abortion doctor since that doctor has taken a life. Right or wrong? Some animal rights activists feel justified in sabotage that may harm humans. Right or wrong? See where I'm getting at?

The simple fact is you don't like bolts for whatever reason. Not a problem for me. I respect that. I bet you don't even go to exit 38. That solves that. You don't have to see the ugly bolts.

I assume you're simply going to remain unhappy and not start cutting the ropes of people leading sport routes because they are 'murdering the impossible'.

I don't understand why there has to be two f*&cking camps..sport vs trad. I think that's a bunch of horseshit, ego crap. Most of the people I have climbed with do both as do I.

I expect to see a better use of logic in the future from a math major :-)

[pope]

It's just an opinion, and it's not just my opinion, and it's not the opinion that's so special, it's the wilderness. In the city, I accept certain evils as part of our culture, but I try to minimize my impact. When I go to the hills, I try to escape that stuff. Peace out bro.

[miker]

Pope,

Speaking about rap anchors all the way up Outer Space, there are some brand spanking new looking anchors down the left side of the climb all the way to 2 tree ledge which are spaced for single rope rapelling. Of course from 2 tree ledge you hang off a thin little root and hope the tree is strong. Maybe you want to go up and finish that line all the way to the ground, or not??? Now I personally appreciated the rap stations as I did not know what the descent gullies were like, but esthetically these big silver eyesores definitely detracted from the "lines" of the rock.

IMHO

mike

[pope]

JBlakely,

You may wish to read more carefully before pointing out (imaginary) holes in my logic. My purpose was to provide examples of things that many people find objectionable, to demonstrate that ignoring something offensive just because it exists is ridiculous. I'm not blowing up any abortion clinics buddy, just bitchin' about bolts. The suggestion that I'll be happy if I stay away from Exit 38....you haven't been out to Castle Rock lately.

[jblakley]

Ok sorry if I took anything you said out of context. You presuppose though that people are 'ignoring' something bad (bolts) when that is not widely recognized as a bad thing. Beating up girls is widely recognized as a bad thing. So are you suggesting that we all see your way and suddenly realize that all bolts no matter how responsibly put up, are evil? Good luck on that campaign. I certainly do admire your passion though I may disagree with at least part of your cause.

[pope]

I suspect people won't join my cause, but a significant number of people have similar feelings. My point is that enjoyment per se is not justification for permanently damaging a public resource, and that those who would engage in this are valuing their personal gratification over wilderness preservation, over respecting a limited resource and those who wish to keep it natural. Again, I don't expect people to come join "my" cause, but I would like people to think before taking this construction-zone approach to "traditional" cliffs. That's what would seem to make sense for everybody on either side of this argument.

[pope]

Hard to explain, why I don't like bolts. They're ugly. They represent man's domination over wilderness. They represent the diminishment of adventure, the lowering of a mountain's defenses so that mediocre climbers have access. I don't like bolts for the same reason I don't want a road built up the side of Mt. Rainier. I like wilderness.

Bolts have a place: when you're on the lead, trying to climb a face, doing everything you can to squeak in gear, facing certain death if you don't drill...then I suppose you've got a right to drill. Then, you're meeting the mountain on its terms and offering a piece of your tail in the balance. Without this ethic, bolts can and do get place on any and every cliff by just about everybody who can afford a drill and the electricity to charge the batteries. What you get is shit.

I like my mountains and my "wimin" natural. Thanks for caring.