Media glorification of mountaineering accidents

[carolyn]

Kevbone, make your friends read these posts.

 

They would never comment on this forum. Spend too much time climbing.

 

thats one of the craziest things ive heard on this site, as they obviously have plenty of time to spend with other aspects of the media.

 

 

[barkernews]

You stated several times that the MLU is what saved them and never once addressed the fact that the people lacked the experience to be there and created the problem themselves.

 

At 5:35pm on Sunday Febuary 18th I stated that "no climber in his right mind would be on the mountain today. Yesterday's forecast clearly indicated bad weather was moving in."

 

You never stated that the initial group was located through the use of the GPS, or address the fact that they were not able to navigate with the GPS unit they possessed.

 

I can't confirm these facts if the climbers won't speak with me... which they won't.

 

You folded to the media hype, jumped on the bandwagon, and did not once stand up for the climbing community. Plus, every report from KATU I've seen has not once addressed the climbing community's perspective with regards to this incident or with regards to the proposed Bill on carrying MLUs.

 

It's not my job to "stand up" for anyone. I state the facts.

Regarding everything else my station does: I've fought like hell to keep us from sensationalizing this story any more than we already have. It's a daily battle. I don't always win.

 

Sorry for the dose of reality and const4ructive criticism. if you want to meet in person and talk about these issues over a beer, I live in No Po as well.

 

I have never argued that local TV news is a quality source of information. There's a lot of crap on the news. But I work my ass off to make sure my 2 minutes isn't crap.

 

I do my best to make sure the stories I do about climbing and climbing rescues are fair and accurate. But I won't let my personal interests sway the way I present a story. Period.

 

I'll PM you about the beer.

[kevbone]

Why did they not navigate back to T-line using the GPS?

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why did they stay when they knew there was a big storm coming in?

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why did they not descend White River Canyon? Seems like very minor injuries to me and not hard to get lost in that canyon down to the snowpark.

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why are they claiming they fell 500 ft? if you look at a map there is not a continuous 500 foot loss in elevation between the main south slope and the bottom of white river canyon anywhere from below the Devil's Kitchen down to Timberline Lodge.

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why did they have crampons on while descending a moderate snow slope while it was snowing? (I was up on Hood on Saturday and know what the conditions were like the day before)

 

Don’t know ask them

 

What was the mountaineering experience of all of the hikers?

 

Don’t know ask them

 

[kevbone]

Kevbone, make your friends read these posts.

 

They would never comment on this forum. Spend too much time climbing.

 

thats one of the craziest things ive heard on this site, as they obviously have plenty of time to spend with other aspects of the media.

 

CC.com is not media. We are entertainment. Pass time.

 

 

 

 

[ryland_moore]

 

More speculation. You dont know what I know.

 

Why did they not navigate back to T-line using the GPS?

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why did they stay when they knew there was a big storm coming in?

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why did they not descend White River Canyon? Seems like very minor injuries to me and not hard to get lost in that canyon down to the snowpark.

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why are they claiming they fell 500 ft? if you look at a map there is not a continuous 500 foot loss in elevation between the main south slope and the bottom of white river canyon anywhere from below the Devil's Kitchen down to Timberline Lodge.

 

Don’t know ask them

 

Why did they have crampons on while descending a moderate snow slope while it was snowing? (I was up on Hood on Saturday and know what the conditions were like the day before)

 

Don’t know ask them

 

What was the mountaineering experience of all of the hikers?

 

Don’t know ask them

 

So you pretend like you know all of the answers and claim that you know more than we do, but when I ask you basic questions you can't answer them? Do you ride the short bus?

 

Barkerews, thanks for the reply.

 

 

[kevbone]

So you pretend like you know all of the answers and claim that you know more than we do, but when I ask you basic questions you can't answer them? Do you ride the short bus?

 

Who is pretending? What exactly have I claimed?

 

 

 

[cluck]

Oh man - this is getting ugly. For the record, my team wore crampons for the walk from the Top of Palmer to the snow cave. The ground was a mixture of blue ice and snow drifts. It's just easier to walk when you have sure footing.

 

We also tied ourselves together. In the howling wind and limited visibility, it seemed a prudent way to keep from getting separated. It's tough to keep track of your friends when peering out from deep inside your parka hood through rime-ice covered goggles in 15-foot visibility.

 

Lastly, from the site where the 3 folks fell, one of our teams tied 3 climbing ropes end to end (~450 feet) and rappelled down to search. It wasn't vertical, but it was steep enough to want to rap. Even at the end of the ropes, our guy wasn't yet to the bottom of the canyon.

 

Hopefully this information will help scratch off a few items from the speculation checklist.

[ryland_moore]

Thanks Cluck. That does clear up a few things. I felt a rope would probably be necessary in those conditions. The slopes really changed from the dsay before in that area. I still find it hard to believe that there is anywhere in that area with a 500 ft. continuous drop. You tied 3 50 meter ropes together? Where is this on the mountain? just up and right of the top of the Palmer? or below, elevation wise?

 

Kevbone, read the first sentence in my last post. You cliam that you know more information about this incident than anyone on this board, implying that you have detailed info. with regards to all of the speculation being flung on this site. aeither you know or you don't know anything more than we do. Obviously, from your last two posts, you don't know.

[NTM]

what would be wrong with following the euro model? pay some yearly dues for "rescue insurance". if you get hurt and get rescued with insurance, it's all good, if you don't have the mtn insurance, pay the bill...

 

[Gary_Yngve]

remember that on a 45-degree slope, 450 ft of rope is more like 300 vertical feet.

[gslater]

what would be wrong with following the euro model? pay some yearly dues for "rescue insurance". if you get hurt and get rescued with insurance, it's all good, if you don't have the mtn insurance, pay the bill...

 

Oh boy, here we go...

[cluck]

Ryland - I don't remember their lengths exactly but all appeared to be at least 50M. This was at about 8,250 on the west rim of White River Canyon.

 

Gary - good point. 450 feet of rope doesn't mean a 450-foot vertical drop. Most of the media has a hard time understanding the difference. Everything is either a "cliff" or a "trail."

 

 

[dmuja]

 

Feel free to mark the photo taken Saturday the 17th

[cluck]

 

[Tanner]

 

Places like Hood that are tourist traps should have some safe guards in place. Even if that means you have to demonstrate some level of compatance (Asked questions) by a 'ranger' before you climb. Good

 

 

Maybe then people taking their dog for a walk up there would get turned around, or maybe a series of signs warning travelers of the hazards present in a alpine/glacier/vertical environment.

 

If these types of things were in place, then at least it can't be said that they weren't given ample warning of what is to come. They wouldn't deter competent climbers ready to climb hood, but it would deter idiots and jackasses from getting themselves into trouble and putting rescuers lives at risk.

[kevbone]

Kevbone, read the first sentence in my last post. You cliam that you know more information about this incident than anyone on this board, implying that you have detailed info. with regards to all of the speculation being flung on this site. aeither you know or you don't know anything more than we do. Obviously, from your last two posts, you don't know.

 

Hey Ryan, I hate to inform you. But I dont claim anything. Detailed info? Where did you get that from? Mars?

 

What is it I know or dont know?

[sobo]

Places like Hood that are tourist traps should have some safe guards in place. Even if that means you have to demonstrate some level of compatance (Asked questions) by a 'ranger' before you climb. Good

 

Oh great, just what I needed: more climbing legislation.

 

 

Maybe then people taking their dog for a walk up there would get turned around, or maybe a series of signs warning travelers of the hazards present in a alpine/glacier/vertical environment.

 

Oh great, just what I needed: more warning signs for idiots. Get this - the literature that came with my avy beacon says "WARNING! This device will not prevent avalanches." Whew! Am I glad I read that before venturing out...

 

 

If these types of things were in place, then at least it can't be said that they weren't given ample warning of what is to come.

 

Since when has having ample warning of the consequences of doing something idiotic and stupid deterred people in this country from doing something idiotic and stupid? And then filing a lawsuit seeking compensation for the consequences of their doing something idiotic and stupid?

 

 

They wouldn't deter competent climbers ready to climb hood, but it would deter idiots and jackasses from getting themselves into trouble and putting rescuers lives at risk.

 

No it wouldn't. See last paragraph above ^^

[rob]

I don't care if they make more rules for climbing, it's just more that I will ignore.

 

represent

[Couloir]

Due to the fact many who wanted to testify were still up on the mountain for the most recent operation, the committee has offered a second public hearing at 1pm on Thursday 2/22, Hearing Room E, Capitol, Salem. All you have to do is sign in and speak. Or if you prefer, submit written testimony.

 

The committee seems to be pretty open to all ideas and are asking good questions.

 

To get a little historical perspective on Mt. Hood, I point to Lloyd's article for the AAC from 1997:

 

http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/rescue/athearn.html

 

Eerily similar.

I was there today. Rollins did a fabulous job with his presentation. So did the 304th. Lots of good speakers today. Sounds like the brainstorming session last night at Steve's place was helpful!

I'm hopeful this bill will either die, or result in a slight modification to existing statutes. Thank you Iain, Cluck and Steve (whatever avi you fly under) for the hard work...here, in Salem, and mostly on the mountain. :brew:

[Tanner]

Hood is an anomaly as far as mountais go. THERE IS A CHAIR LIFT HALF WAY UP AND IS INCREDABLE EASY TO ACCESS. Thus, it is attractive to more than its share of stupid people. Other peaks the techical difficulty or the approach seems weed people out that shouldn't be there.

 

Not more legislation, just damage control in a very sensative area.

 

i.e. put more life guards in the kiddie pool.

 

 

Tanner

[iain]

I was there today.

 

Glad you could make it. I think most peoples' biggest concern is more feel-good legislation with no teeth that really doesn't do anything, with significant hidden expenses, with no outline for funding.

 

Ironically, it could put rescue responses in greater danger by building an expectation of rescue, and more frequent "pull the trigger and sit" situations, due to a mandatory device.

 

Equally ironic is the fact the bill was introduced in memory of Jerry Cooke, who most likely fell off the north face, and would have had to pull the MLU device while falling to activate it. MLUs would not have saved that particular party.

 

It is a difficult message to convey, because the MLU has been very, very helpful in finding people in storms. That fact should not be discounted. Simply, they should be recommended but not mandatory. If you are going to require MLUs to promote safety, shouldn't you also require specific boots, crampons, axes, etc?

 

Anyway, I'm glad the latest climbers are back safely, so they can get chewed out by you guys.

[dmuja]

Heres the legeslation I would like to see pass-->

 

"No publicly funded agency of any level of government, be it township, city, county, state or federal, shall expend or devote any resources what so ever, be it time, monies, transportation, equipment, or personnel, of any and all kind, to any emergency rescue request, or request for assistance of whatever nature, by any persons what so ever, which occurs higher than 7,000 feet above sea level. Nor will there be any responsibility of, or liability on the part of, said agencies for fulfilling and conforming to this regulation."

 

Climbers should rescue themselves, period. No public money, no grounds for whining and bitching. You could call it the "Freedom" bill, kinda like the "patriot act" of 2007.

[wfinley]

Heres the legeslation I would like to see pass-->

 

"No publicly funded agency of any level of government, be it township, city, county, state or federal, shall expend or devote any resources what so ever, be it time, monies, transportation, equipment, or personnel, of any and all kind, to any emergency rescue request, or request for assistance of whatever nature, by any persons what so ever, which occurs higher than 7,000 feet above sea level. Nor will there be any responsibility of, or liability on the part of, said agencies for fulfilling and conforming to this regulation."

 

Climbers should rescue themselves, period. No public money, no grounds for whining and bitching. You could call it the "Freedom" bill, kinda like the "patriot act" of 2007.

 

Dmuja - I sure hope you knocked on wood before you posted that. I know many climbers who have limbs and lives thanks to the devotion of groups like the Alaska Mountain Rescue group or military branches like the PJs. To pretend that you are immune from misfortune is stupid.

[Tanner]

Heres the legeslation I would like to see pass-->

 

"No publicly funded agency of any level of government, be it township, city, county, state or federal, shall expend or devote any resources what so ever, be it time, monies, transportation, equipment, or personnel, of any and all kind, to any emergency rescue request, or request for assistance of whatever nature, by any persons what so ever, which occurs higher than 7,000 feet above sea level. Nor will there be any responsibility of, or liability on the part of, said agencies for fulfilling and conforming to this regulation."

 

Don't get hurt in Denver

[dmuja]

Not a joke. Im sure we could pool all our resources for some choppers, between the AAC and all the other organizations and the volunteer mountain rescue teams that are already organized. Im just saying that this is one area where I would greatly prefer privatization over regulation by a bunch of clueless whining know-it-alls.