Prices in the US

[Maurice]

I would like to know why climbing product prices are so high on french and italian products. In the US, we pay twice the french retail, while they buy our products for the same retail as we pay. Why is it unfair in this way? All the while they include a 20% sales tax in their retail prices and their currency has lost 20% of its value to the dollar over the last two years. Yet somehow their consumers are making off like bandits and we are getting the shaft and a poor selection.

Could our import taxes be particularly high on this type of product?

Anyone who knows, please fill me in.

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[Maurice]

Is it possible that Americans don't care that they pay astronomically inflated prices for boots, crampons, axes, etc?

[jon]

I don’t know crap about business (though I took some economics in college) but here is my guess, which is probably wrong. The Euro companies are either raising the price for the US or the resellers are raising it themselves. It’s not like computers or TVs where everyone will buy one if the price is right. Whatever the case may be, there is a limited market for climbing gear like ice axes in the US. They could sell the Euro stuff at the Euro prices, and everyone would buy Euro gear because most likely the American manufacturers would not be able to match the price. But unlike the supply/demand graphs those econ guys use, the lower price won’t sell many more axes, because you have already reached market saturation. So why not sell the Euro stuff at the same price as the American stuff? Either way you’re selling the same amount of axes, only your make a lot more dinero.

[DPS]

I spoke to the owner of a climbing shop in Canada about why prices on European equipment was so much lower than in the States. He said the US has very high tariffs.

[forrest_m]

dan, well of course he told you that... what's he going to say, "oh, you got me, we've been ripping you off for years..." ;-)

actually, I think jon's got it right, though it's not the store owners (they have to sell stuff at "suggested retail" most of the time or risk losing that product line) but rather the national distributers who set the US prices. there's only a handful of big distributers who import the vast majority of euro gear. RICO, anyone?

[Maurice]

I wonder if people that have ordered stuff from europe have had to pay duty.

[dberdinka]

There has been a lot of discussion on this same issue regarding telemark equipment, imparticular Scarpa Tele Boots. Prices in the US are well over double of that in Europe. The only importer, Black Diamond, claims that that the higher prices are a result of additional "marketing" costs. In fact several mail-order outfits were shipping to the US at Euro prices without any duty costs, which sort of blows that theory away.

However BD aggresively acted to shut these suppliers down by having Scarpa threaten to cut off there supply. So as far as tele gear goes, my impression is they're charging more simply because they can.

[Matt]

I recently moved to Seattle from Tokyo, Japan where climbing gear is on average 30% more expensive than it is here in the US. It could be worse!!! Even at the newly opened REI in Tokyo prices were astronomical!!! $70 ice screws!!!!

[snowleopard_x]

This subject has been discussed thoroughly on RCU and other boards. Plus Loren, of www.cascadeclimber.com (notice there is no "s") sums it up quite well on his website.

BD and others are essentially colluding with other companies (Rei, MSR) to bully others (MEC, Cham3s, T-P), which is tanamount to price-fixing, and arguably racketeering, to charge what the US market will bear. Pure and simple. If they can stay in business charging you $200 for an ice axe that costs them $50 to make, and enough of you will pay, they'll charge you for it regardless of what their costs or taxes are. And that's what it all comes down to. I don't mind paying a little more, but when the costs are 200% higher than what they sell them for elsewhere? That's absurd, and nothing but price gouging.

This is also why supply-side economics (Reganomics) is such a fallacy. Cutting taxes for businesses (or even income) isn't going to make the manufacturers and distributers make and stock more items, thus driving the prices down. It's the same in just about any other non-regulated market. They will charge what the market will bear.

Yes, you should pay duties on imported goods into the country bought overseas, including the toys we buy. That is part of what makes the market fair. But this amount is nothing compared to the price difference between what BD wants to charge you for items here in the US, versus what some Euro companies will. That said, hardly anyone I have ever heard of has been taxed for import duties. US Customs are understaffed and too busy dealing with big shipments, plus drugs and guns, to worry about each pair ski boots that come through.

Again, visit CC's site. He is very knowledgeable about this issue.

[Alex]

Even with prices at Barrabes being as low as they are, climbing is a luxury sport in Europe. Don't be fooled into thinking retail prices are any cheaper in most of Europe for most climbing goods than they are in the U.S. In Vienna (where I am sitting at the moment) there are only a few shops that sell anything technical. Those shops charge just as much or more for technical gear as you will find in the U.S., and Austria is an EC country, which means tariffs from France and Germany are not any different than in those countries.

It is true you will find some things somewhat cheaper here, Alpine Touring bindings for example are 25-30% less. But you can't buy a decent ice tool for less than 200$ US here in Austria either.

I am not a big fan of the US outdoor retail market's pricing or efforts to shut out competition from overseas. I do not support Black Diamond and do not buy their products. Evenso, it isnt that easy to get better prices on some merchandise.

Just some perspective, Alex

[Maurice]

Alex

It's interesting that you say Austria is expensive, but if you don't think France is any cheaper then go to:

www.au-vieux-campeur.fr

and tell me if the euro prices are not lower than Austria. This is the biggest store in Paris for equipment and I've bought lots there at their prices.

[Maurice]

Thanks Snowleopard

I think I have got my answer now.

The letter from BD is interesting and their arguments seem weak.

I think they are implying that BD products are the only one to have design and production costs, as if others don't ?!?!

[erik]

sorry but i do support bd. i have been through the factory and spoke to several reps.(brain washed probably, a free t-shirt sure can do alot.)

about bd's r&d cost, i would expect that it be higher then most other co's.

since the bent shaft no one has come up with a new cutting edge design. now bd has introduced carbon fiber tools. cheap no. sweet hell yes. if you also notice that bd tools have gluded heads opposed to screwing them on like the rest. glue takes testing and mixing. and reduces vibration and there is never a loose tool head or sripped bolts.

they also have sick biner's, everyday i replace a oval or d with a 36g neutrino i think man i will be able to climb 5.11 in the mountains. someday.

it takes alot of time and energy to design and test a light biner that is strong.(i know kong makes the helium but something about that little flexy biner that says sketch.).

though i dont have much experience with most euro co's. just the ones that market heavily over here. the only companies that i seeked out because i thought that made quality stuff was petzl and grivel(rambo crampons).

metolius prices are as high as bd and no one seems to be trashing them.?

and in the end if you don't like it don't buy it.

 

[Alex]

With all due respect to Yvonne, Black Diamond has done nothing inovative since the first X-15 came out, and the fin gate. I still have my pair of Chouinard X-15s, and live and breathe by them. But you know, the neutrino isnt the only light biner on the market...there is the Helium. The wire gate is only evangelized by BD, it was used in sailing ages before it was used in climbing. Carbon fiber glue R&D does not impress me, as many many other industries, including bikes, aerospace etc use carbon fiber and have had to learn how to glue "stuff". So sorry, I remain unimpressed - BD offers a decent and thoughtful product, but I would say that and more about Petzl, Kong, Camp, Charlet, Grivel, Salewa, Trango, and other manufacturers.

Aux Vieuex Campeur is a great shop in Paris that I am a big fan of, I did not know they were online! They have large buying power in Europe. Still, I think prices elsewhere in Europe are pretty high!

Alex

[Maurice]

Alex

I know only prices in France and Sweden, but am not surprised that you might say some places in Europe are expensive.

But now that we cannot generalize about Europe, it's really going to get complicated.

[CascadeClimber]

I think BD is getting picked on a bit b/c they had the audacity to claim (on another site) that the price differential was due to "costs of sales and promotion*" in the U.S.", and because they coerced some non-U.S. shops into ceasing shipments back into the U.S. or artificially inflating the prices on those shipments.

They are a class operation- good gear that they stand behind. But I see no reason that we should pay up to twice as much for the same equipment as folks in Canada and Europe. In some cases, like Scarpa, the gear is not manufactured by BD, just distributed. Sure, that neutrino biner is nice, but why is it $8 here and $4 elsewhere? And if the R&D is so costly, then don't revamp the whole line of T-Whatever boots (etc.) every year, for God's sake.

If you are looking for other names, you can start with LifeLink. Dynafit products are about 80% more here than at some of the shops in Europe. And Climb High too, with all the Grivel products.

Sorry if I am ranting a bit, but I just had MEC tell me this morning they wouldn't ship *any* climbing gear into the States anymore.

I'll quit now.

-CC

*Read the response from BD here: http://www.backcountryworld.com/dcforum/equipment/334.html#2

[rbw1966]

I have purchased BDEL gear in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Why? One simple reason: customer service. Every time I've had a problem with gear they've replaced it or fixed it and had it back to me in a very short period of time. Lets see Barrabes beat that.

I don't agree with them shutting down foreign retailers though--especially if they are selling a product line that BDEL is not responsible for manufacturing or developing.

Like any consumer, I will buy my stuff where I get the best deals. BDEL can strong-arm the foreign retailers all they want--are they really cutting off that significant a market? I am sure there will always be ways to get around these tactics. In the end its up to the consumer to make the decisions with their wallets.

[Winter]

I've bought a fair amount of gear from Telemark-Pyrenees, although they don't have the best selection of climbing gear. They do, however, have great prices on AT gear and excellent customer service. (I think the French are friendlier via e-mail when you're paying them money.)

But here's an interesting antecdote to keep in mind. Most of the time you don't have to worry about duty. Once, though, I got a notice from a collection agency about 6 months after a purchase. They claimed I owed DHL ten bucks for duty, that they had sent me three notices and that they were going to report me to the credit bueraus. I had never paid duty before, never gotten any notices and didn't even know this was an issue. I called T-P and they told me that this happens from time to time and that it is totally luck of the draw as to whether customs gets you.

[Maurice]

I was looking through my Au Vieux Campeur catalogue (store in Paris) and noticed the comments for the BD Cobra ice tool and had to laugh a little.

They said: High Tech materials, attention to detail and an astronomical price.

In fact it is a minimum of double the price of about 15 different tools.

298 euros while the Axar is 143 euros or the Rambo 2 is 129 euros.

In fact I checked Mgear and they sell it for 299$, so a guy with dollars would pay 30$ less for it in France. That's funny!

Anybody who wants to compare some prices go to: au-vieux-campeur.fr