Guide books

[kevbone]

I have been to crags that have 3 or 4 star routes that nobody does soley because they have a PG or PG13 rating on them. How can a route be given 3 or 4 stars with a PG rating? What the fuck?

[markd]

andrew,

your inability to have an educated conversation is astonishing!

 

i'm not playing your game. do you have anything on topic to say?

 

 

mark, i do beleive that you diverted the topic yourself and i don't think kevin is fishing for info for his own guide. if kevin is going to put out a guide and you disagree with it, maybe it would have better to p.m. him. what was your angle with your post to kevin anyway?

 

mr. pink

the topic of this thread is guidebooks. all i talked about in my original post was guidebooks. my only off topic post was to you after you made some unprovoked comments to me.

 

kevin knows what i think about the guide. that's why i proposed some specific questions for him, so the forum could join in. he would have done the same to me if i was creating this guide. what do you think about guidebooks for unpublished areas that have the potential to get shut down? what if you were one of the original developers? you sure had a lot to say about beacon when that was on the chopping block, as i did as well. i'm very passionate about places i develop and this place happens to be one of them.

 

have a good day - i'm off to the mountain for first chair and some fresh pow.

[pink]

mark, i don't like guide book's, but i have a shelf full of them. i don,t like money either, but it is neccecary for me to survive. if you hate one guide you may as well hate them all, because every crag has the potential of being shut down. some people build houses i the country to be isolated, but the minute someone builds a house next to them, wel there goes the nieghborhood.

 

i don't think i got off topic, i just agreed with you and put a little humor in at the ass end of my comment. i feel the same way as you do mark. i thought this topic was about star rating's, maybe this thread was mis-titled. i was just adding to your question because i think they are valid ones.

 

i have no say in the crag that you speak of, but i will say that i do agree with you on guide book's. i'm a hypocrite, and so are you. we are all hypocrite's to a certain degree. i did not even know that you guy's were talking about a certain crag. i talk to kevin everyday and you might find it hard to believe, but he has never mentioned to me once about putting out any guidebook.

 

mark, if you hate guides so much, why are posting on cc.com trying to hunt for a specific guide. i would form an opinion about you mark, but i don't really know you.

 

have a good day - i'm off to work , because fortnately i have work this winter.

Edited January 11, 2007 by pink

[Dechristo]

Although you say you intend that this guide/list would only be for yourself, if there is no other literature available giving information of the routes at this crag, it is near inevitable your information will find its way into other rock-clasping hands. You may intend to compose this info in an editorial-free fashion, but that is boring as hell and cheats the reader/climber of added tidbits and insight into the routes.

 

Have some fun with this labor. Beside the basic info of ratings, gear, FA party, etc., you should give some indication of what routes are your favorites and why. If you don't like awarding stars, at least provide a list of personal favorites (regardless of rating) to help "guide" a climber in their limited time at the crag.

[kevbone]

Thanks for you input Dechristo. At this current juncture this “Guide/list” won’t be leaving my computer. I do like your idea when writing a guide with no stars to add a list of “writers favorites”, this seems like a plausible solution to the “no star” approach. Although at a small crag is seems that if you go to a crag that is still new, you as a climber should be aware of the newness of the crag and be fully aware there are no stars, just grades listed on the “list”. Therefore just be looking up at a climb, the climb will either “call you “or it wont.

Spring Mt is a good example, all three times I have been there I have used Kevin’s (guy who wrote guide) guide you can find online. I don’t believe he used a star system. Either way I do remember just going by grades and how the route looked. Did it look fun? Roofs/features/cracks/sustained/not sustained? That sort of thing. I kind of like that kind of an approach. I really don’t want to spoon feed anybody with the “come and climb my climb because I put it up routine”. They need to climb it for themselves.

 

[Stewart]

I hate that I love guidebooks. I've got like 10. Funny they never make it to the rock. I just look at them at home. I'm upset that my classic "Climbing Guide to Oregon" is falling apart.

 

Kevin, when can I have a copy of your guide/list? I've been waiting and nothing is in my inbox. I figure I can reach you here easier than through personal email.

 

Speaking of guidebooks with interesting star ratings, when is "PDX Rock Climbing 3.0" coming out? If you ever need a guide at Beacon just yell up the rock "Opdyke!!!!!" He'll be there to answer all your question.

 

Your Pimp, snoop

 

 

 

[JosephH]

I do hate guide books and knowing anything about a line (even that it is a route) before I get on it the first time. I like just getting to an area, scoping the rock and jumping on whatever lines grab my eye.

 

The only use I ever had for guidebooks was the first page or two that tells you how to get to an area. I sometimes go back to a store after I leave and see what I climbed, but that's about it. The Beacon guide is the only one other than Chris Mac's big wall guide for El Cap that I've ever bought and that was so I could communicate with Jim.

 

As for the star issue - I'm with Kevin after the disaster of the stars in Olson's book - skip the stars. What I think guidebooks really miss, and what makes them all souless, is the great opportunity to tell the "story" of each route. Most routes [trad anyway] usually have one or more stories about them and what was happening in the FA's lives and in the local community at the time - those are the word-of-mouth legacies that get handed down by folks like Jim and you guys who were there. I don't really care how hard routes are or what pro they take - I'll figure that out for myself - what I like knowing is the [creation] stories around how each route came to be. So as far as I'm concerned, guidebooks authors tend to capture all the stuff I don't care about and miss the stuff I really want to read or hear...

[pink]

good post joseph. i 100% agree with what you just said.

[kevbone]

Anybody notice in Olsen guide there are several 3 or 4 star routes that are PG or PG 13, what is up with this? I was under the impression that the more stars the more possitive. Better pro, rock and holds are. Well PG means if you fall you have a damn good chance you are goin to hit something other than air. I have a hard time thinking a route can be 4 stars and be PG/PG13.

 

Comments?

[Dr_Flush_Amazing]

 

Comments?

 

I think your head is filled with rock dust from all those bolt holes you've drilled.

 

Stars refer to the aesthetic quality of the route, not the seriousness. That is why there is a separate rating system for the seriousness. Mindblowing eh?

 

ps - note that you can click on that "college folk" word to get a definition of it if you wish.

[kevbone]

 

Comments?

 

I think your head is filled with rock dust from all those bolt holes you've drilled.

 

Stars refer to the aesthetic quality of the route, not the seriousness. That is why there is a separate rating system for the seriousness. Mindblowing eh?

 

ps - note that you can click on that "college folk" word to get a definition of it if you wish.

 

Why do you have to be an asshole? Seriously?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jens]

Anybody notice in Olsen guide there are several 3 or 4 star routes that are PG or PG 13, what is up with this? I was under the impression that the more stars the more possitive. Better pro, rock and holds are. Well PG means if you fall you have a damn good chance you are goin to hit something other than air. I have a hard time thinking a route can be 4 stars and be PG/PG13.

 

Comments?

Only since you are soliciting comments..... just to help you out...uh, no offense but editing or deleting the above post will give you a lot more credibility.

[DirtyHarry]

 

Comments?

 

I think your head is filled with rock dust from all those bolt holes you've drilled.

 

Stars refer to the aesthetic quality of the route, not the seriousness. That is why there is a separate rating system for the seriousness. Mindblowing eh?

 

ps - note that you can click on that "college folk" word to get a definition of it if you wish.

 

Why do you have to be an asshole? Seriously?

 

 

 

Must be inherent, like your retardation.

 

Stars are subjective, just means how much the guidebook author likes the climb or not.

 

 

 

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Why do you have to be an asshole? Seriously?

 

 

because it's where you set the bar for yourself. pretty simple really.

[kevbone]

Why do you have to be an asshole? Seriously?

 

 

because it's where you set the bar for yourself. pretty simple really.

 

Im going to have to disagree sexual_chocolat. If this was in spray I would not give a shit what you say about me or the thread. But as you can see, it is not. So this thread is not about BEING AN ASSHOLE, its a valid discussion about guide books.

I would love to hear your opinion about the topic.

[sexual_chocolate]

hehe nice end-around. keep playin', but don't be such a dolt as to wonder why....

you think you can be a certain way somewhere, and not have that follow you around elsewhere?

[kevbone]

hehe nice end-around. keep playin', but don't be such a dolt as to wonder why....

you think you can be a certain way somewhere, and not have that follow you around elsewhere?

 

Still waiting.....

[Off_White]

hehe nice end-around. keep playin', but don't be such a dolt as to wonder why....

you think you can be a certain way somewhere, and not have that follow you around elsewhere?

 

Is your view due to the way they treat you so roughly over on ass.com? (that would be ascensionist.com to the uninitiated, not some random butt sex reference)

 

Frankly, I think the notion that one can speak with different voices in different forum is just fine, though certainly you can't keep folks from making their personal judgments about you based on the sum total of all your eternally recorded public postings.

 

One can be polite in one realm and a raging fucktard in another. In fact, I depend on that paradigm. Context is everything.

 

My apologies for the digression, this is pretty far afield from the subject of guidebooks.

[DirtyHarry]

Frankly, I think the notion that one can speak with different voices in different forum is just fine, though certainly you can't keep folks from making their personal judgments about you based on the sum total of all your eternally recorded public postings.

 

One can be polite in one realm and a raging fucktard in another. In fact, I depend on that paradigm. Context is everything.

 

Good point, but isn't the fact that Kevbone is an annoying twat wherever he posts enough of a context?

[Drederek]

I don't mind the stars so much. They are just another clue to what you're getting into. I like the pg - x ratings because I've done a few r rated routes and I'm getting too old for it.

 

Stars and the PG-X rating are different in my book (no pun intended). Starrs tell the quality of a route and PG-X tells you how dangerous a route is.

Duh

[kevbone]

Good point, but isn't the fact that Kevbone is an annoying twat wherever he posts enough of a context?

 

That could be said about you as well. Matter of fact, it is.

Edited January 12, 2007 by kevbone

[kevbone]

Anybody notice in Olsen guide there are several 3 or 4 star routes that are PG or PG 13, what is up with this? I was under the impression that the more stars the more possitive. Better pro, rock and holds are. Well PG means if you fall you have a damn good chance you are goin to hit something other than air. I have a hard time thinking a route can be 4 stars and be PG/PG13.

 

Comments?

Only since you are soliciting comments..... just to help you out...uh, no offense but editing or deleting the above post will give you a lot more credibility.

 

You need to be more descriptive please, why do I need to delete this post?

[billcoe]

Good point, but isn't the fact that Kevbone is an annoying twat wherever he posts enough of a context?

 

That could be said about you as well. Matter of fact, it is.

_______________________________________________________________________

 

Does anybody think showing up, ignoring the question posed, then just directly attacking a person is helping or not?

 

I think both Kevin and Andrew have made great strides in both posting interesting information and in humor (as evidenced in the quote above!) since they started posting on CC.com (Andrew origonally as FlyingPig).

 

Kevin- for instance, alone, has posted more interesting rock climbing photos than all of you cranky, winter-bound and can't get out posters combined in the last month. The pic of Andrew (Pink alone in the rock climbing forum) soloing, by itself, was about as good as it gets.

 

Kevin: 2 issues re: guidebook.

 

When I was shown the area you mention (back in the dark ages) I was sworn to secrecy. Maybe you were not. My own climbing partner did not hear of it until he read the brief blurb about it ( later removed in the 2nd addition) in the guidebook. Nor did my wife hear of it. I rarely swear to secrecy, but when I do, you will have to drill my teeth without Novocain to get the info. But of course, then I will give you whatever you wish, just like Dustin Hoffman did in Running Man when the Nazi drilled his!

 

Maybe it was different for you.

 

2nd – Trying to answer the question. Historically, P, PG, R and X ratings showed up way late to the party. For many years, the grades given were the hardest move, and also overall length of a route. So a Grade IV 5.9, reflected 2 things, IV indicated the length and commitment, (4 =all day) and 5.9, the Yosemite scale difficulty rating of the hardest move on the route. A grade V (5) meant 2 days, Grade 6 multiple days. You can head to the Idaho thread to see this kind of discussion on Baron Tower. I.e. - was it a grade 3 or 4? Deuce (John Middendorf) later proposed a Grade 7, like some extremely long and difficult type of the stuff somebody like Brad Jarrod (you run into him at Jimmy O's ?) might crank in Baffin Island or some other, bigger than El Cap kind of thing –maybe somebody doing a new route up Trango Tower for instance. Climbing at 19,000 feet elevation and 7000 feet of vertical in a remote location, why should it be a grade 6, like most El Cap routes, which are @ a 45 min from your car, except for the West Face route say, and then “only” 3000 of beautiful granite. Grades 1 (easiest) –6 (longest most commiting) are pretty much used.

 

Please excuse the extra elaboration, I'm drinking wine now.

 

Anyway, people climbing at Joshua Tree or Smith, really didn’t have a need to say “Oh, that s a Grade 1, 5.8, or that’s a Grade 2 5.8”. So you will rarely hear those numbers bandied about. Your ar a friggan crag and can see the top of the climbs well within reach. People just say it’s a 5.8 and drop the grade. Something longer like Royal Arches still often gets defined with the Grade (Grade 3, most of a day).

 

Later, people were scratching their heads and saying crap like, “Damn dude, did you ever do Angel Wing Buttress at Smith?”

 

“Uhhh, no, how hard is it dude?”

 

“Only 5.8, but man, there’s maybe 2 pieces of pro on the whole damn thing and if you fly, you might die.”

 

“Hey, no shit dude?”.

 

“Yup, only 5.8, it’s a great route, great rock, great location, great moves, but you’d better have your friggan lead head on and feel solid on 5.9 or 10a you’ll pancake hard if you auger in”.

 

So contrast it with say: Revelations also at Smith, , a well bolted 5.9. Somebody who can hang on Revelations, or barely make it up it (but safely), would be a potential candidate for a litter carryout if they walked over and did an EASIER route.

 

The P, PG, R and X were an attempt to codify that part of a routes characteristics. It is different than how long the route is, or how hard the route is. It gives some additional warning to someone looking at a topo for something like Snake Dike thinking that hey, it’s 5.4 with a spot of 5.7.

 

Moving along:

 

Same dudes, same route, same discussion:

“Hey – how good is the route?”

“Oh man, it’s friggan A-1 Awesome!”

“Yeah?”

“Yup, unfrigganbelivable”.

“No Sh*t?”

“Year godd*ammit, but don’t fall or ya die”.

 

“Hmmmm, OK then - well, how good is that compared to Revalaions then? Rate it on a scale from 1-10 or 1-5 stars. “ Ok,it’s a 3 star route”.

 

“Well, how good is Revalations?”

“Maybe 4 stars”.

 

Later this gets summed up in a guidebook to hit the high points that anyone needs to be safe: saying that it’s a Grade 1 (short), 5.8 (hardest move), R or X (serious - fall you die), 3 star (awesome route, solid rock, great location, views of Mt Jefferson, solid rock, great route).

 

This is a fictional comparison of routes to show how this shook out: I don’t want to debate routes, cause Angel Flight kind of sucks and might only be a 1 or 2 star route. I’ve only done it once and suspect that the loose holds have pretty much been yanked off by now.

 

Anyway, that’s how it is in my mind.

 

[JosephH]

What he said...

[pink]

joseph, i think that was your shortest post.