Fuel - how much for how long?

[ClimbingPanther]

If there is one lesson I'm taking away from the Hood tragedy, it's that extra fuel doesn't weight much but could save your life. The capability to make hot water from the snow around you keeps you hydrated and warms you up, and it doesn't weight much for the possible benefit it can give you.

 

My question to those who have spent at least several days in an alpine environment with snow-melting as the only source of water:

What volume/weight of white gas fuel (or # of canisters) is necessary to sustain you on a per person/per day basis? Fuel has always been guesswork and luck for me.

[quicker_than_ewe]

Fuel has always been guesswork and luck for me.

 

Me too. But one thing I do, is any climb where I have a glacier approach and camp, I always take freeze dried packages, so I don't have to waste even more fuel cooking.

[Ade]

It's a function of how cold it is. For cold trips I take 1/2 a cup (4foz) per person per day in the hill. For somewhere really cold you might want more.

 

I usually carry a bit more that I need - like an extra day. I'd rather rely on being very good at retreat than carrying additional food/fuel/gear and being slow, if you're going too slowly then bail early.

[ericb]

this is a lame answer, but it probably depends on the stove, pot, whether there's a wind screen and/or other fancy heat exchanger type thingy's. I seem to recall that Titanium pots, while lighter, have less efficient heat transfer, and therefore use more gas to melt snow. There's some inflexion point where the weight saved on the pot is more than negated by the extra fuel required.

[Kevin_Matlock]

Related but not specifically answering....

To help with the equation, I can run my MSR XGK at full burn for very close to 1 hour with the 11oz (smallest?) bottle.

[treknclime]

A cup of white gas per person per day is a good place to start (when melting snow), with a XGK.

 

When going for more than 2 nights...and/or if you're planning to brew up for lunch...throw in a little extra. If you're using more than 2 stoves under a large pot in a group situation...increase the fuel consumption to a bit more than a cup per person per day.

 

For most average climbs...in the greater picture, a little extra fuel weighs very little for what it can provide.

 

Hope this helps.

[ericb]

so is the XGK the way to go for winter...I'm getting by with my whisperlight, but it can be finicky

[Macson]

First, I use an MSR Simmerlight stove. I usually bring 5 oz per person per day of white gas, and I usually have a fair amount left over. Year before last I started with 3 oz per person per day on Rainier to save weight, but one of the guys in our group forgot his fuel, so I ended up with only 2 oz per person per day for 3 days. Ran out of fuel on day 3 and had to beg...which sucks, believe me.

[Ade]

Good point about cooking. The above assumes you are not cooking anything. Tea in the morning and a hot freeze dried meal, one Alpine Aire or similar, between two people in the evening with a couple of brews and melting water for two nalgenes each for the next day. So basically you're using the stove to melt 4 pints of water and get another 4-6 pints for hot drinks.

 

I pretty much always use white gas in the cold. I tried a MSR pocket rocket in the cold last winter and even with some modifications it still pretty much sucked.

[Valid ASB]

no one here uses propane ?

[quicker_than_ewe]

XGKs put out more heat, more noise, and burn more fuel.

[joblo7]

i bring a couple tiny snopeak stoves with canisters. 2days -2people on snow. per can.

 

up to 23000ft

 

extra is dictated by route/exposure/solo/partners etc

 

[ericb]

XGKs put out more heat, more noise, and burn more fuel.

 

so on a fuel/liter of water melted the whisperlight is more efficient, just slower?

[treknclime]

Like Ade, I tried the MSR pocket rocket. Wanted to use it for quick hot lunches, on the go. The rocket sucked. Would rather take a couple of extra minutes and pull out the XGK torch...and get the job over and done with...and not worry about heating up/maintaining the cartridge heat.

[quicker_than_ewe]

XGKs put out more heat, more noise, and burn more fuel.

 

so on a fuel/liter of water melted the whisperlight is more efficient, just slower?

 

Don't know. The XGK always cooked faster for me so I would guess that less fuel is used in the process, making it a better choice. If you put two stoves, a wisperlite and an XGK side by side, the XGK would run out sooner. But since so much more heat is released, the cooking time is much shorter too.

[Kevin_Matlock]

Yeah by most accounts the XGK is a jet engine. Mine is really freaking loud... but incredibly fast to boil, too.

[joblo7]

i've used cans/snopeak for years, for as long as 1 week at altitude at a time.perfect.

 

in us/andes/tibet

 

but like anything else a system needs organization.i keep a can in my bag if its super cold.etc... all fits in 1l pot. stove/can/light/spoon.

 

its all about time management also.i usually climb alpine style.light and direct.

 

i bring a second one if exposed. works for me. you have to experiment.

[dbconlin]

no one here uses propane ?

 

no.

[dbconlin]

My memory tells me (and I am not going to look it up right now) that the data REI publishes indicated that an XGK is slightly quicker and more fuel efficient than a Whisperlite. I don't think the difference is great or warrants purchasing a new stove. One of the main advantages of the XGK is its incredible simplicity. You can take apart and troubleshoot the stove with minimal tools and time. Therefore it seems to ALWAYS work. I think you can do it with the whisperlite, too, but it is a little more complicated/more parts. I think the weakest link is the fuel pump. If you mess it up, you could be out of luck.

 

For canister stoves, one thing you can try in order to streamline your fuel/person dilemma is weigh your canisters. The 'tare weight' is listed on the side of most and you can easily figure out how much fuel you actually used. I've found that a JetBoil works very well even in cold/wind/altitude if you cook inside the tent. I would definitely use one for winter climbing, but you must cook inside so plan accordingly. This keeps wind out and warms the tent, thereby warming the canister.

[forrest_m]

I think the weakest link is the fuel pump. If you mess it up, you could be out of luck.

 

when climbing in alaska and other places where your stove is literally your life, i usually carry a second pump for this reason. it's not a huge weight penalty if you have more than one fuel bottle anyway, since you can just put pumps in both instead of caps.

 

for extended trips, XGK/white gas will eventually end up being lighter than cannister stoves, but (assuming you can make your cannister stove work in cold conditions) a cannister setup is definately lighter for trips of less than 4 or 5 days. this is tempered by my experience that, even with a heat exchanger or copper-tube heating setup, it is impossible to use all the fuel in a gas cannister in cold temps. OTOH, i've never had an XGK become non-functional while there was a drop of flammable liquid within reach.

[Mark_Husbands]

Has anyone attempted to use a chemical handwarmer, possibly inside some kind of cannister "coozie", to keep a cannister going in the cold?

[wfinley]

Also note that the XGK works with just about any type of fuel out there -- a plus when all you can find is watered down kerosine.

 

My climbing tends to be of the glacial slog variety thus weight is not that much of an issue; On extended trips where we have 4 people we'll carry two stoves and cook separately; if one stove dies we can always suck it up and share one stove / 4 people. For 2 person trips it depends on the type of trip. Having had numerous stoves break on me in the past I always err on the safe side. Sometimes we'll carry 2 pumps / 1 stove, sometimes 2 stoves and then cache one at the base of the route / basecamp.

 

As for fuel - on winter / spring AK trips I haul 33 oz / 2 people / 5 days for mellow ski or climbing trips (i.e. - hanging out in the lower mountains where it will be around 15-25 degrees). When we're in areas especially prone to storms or if I know it's going to be super cold or high altitude I'll actually double the amount of fuel to 66 oz / 2 people / 5 days. This is a tad on the heavy side but it means I can sit in the tent when the storms role in and not have to fret about running out of fuel.

 

 

[joblo7]

from reading all this, it all depends on a lot of factors namely:

 

climate

route length

difficulty

climb style

group size

inside/outside cooking

weight

safety

food preference

,

many systems work fine, only, really exreme situations demand the best.

[jaee]

Sometimes we'll carry 2 pumps / 1 stove, sometimes 2 stoves and then cache one at the base of the route / basecamp.

 

good advice

 

33 oz / 2 people / 5 days to 66 oz / 2 people / 5 days.

this is 3.3 oz to 6.6 oz per person per day.

 

So the standard answer of 4-8 oz per person per day is still the standard answer. Good to have this in the framework of your experience, wfinley.

 

 

 

 

[treknclime]

Oh...and for Denali...I usually have everyone bring a gallon a fuel a piece, plus 1 or maybe 2 extra gallons (more cans for smaller parties). This allows for caches in a couple of spots (in case you're fueless on the descent), and allows one to carry enough fuel to higher camps in sufficient quantities.

 

Now that the NPS is counting fuel cans (in and out)...it's harder to find left over fuel from other parties...more so in later season (July...my favorite time; it's a wilderness out there without all the people, and the NPS has usually left in the first week of the month).

 

Also...you can make lots of hot drinks with this approach when tent bound...no matter how long your nailed to the slope...without having to abort your climb.