Couloir Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know? Freedom (a concept climbers should understand and value) comes with the responsibility to pay your own way. People you don't even know?? How many people that require assistance anywhere do YOU know personally? In this case, it's called the "304th Air Rescue Squadron." It's part of the Department of Defense. "RESCUE." What's their mission if it's not to rescue people whether it be soldiers or civilians? Charge everyone for being rescued?? Or just the minute percentage of climbers who may need it? Or better, who YOU think should be charged?? Quote
Clavote Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know? Freedom (a concept climbers should understand and value) comes with the responsibility to pay your own way. People you don't even know?? How many people that require assistance anywhere do YOU know personally? In this case, it's called the "304th Air Rescue Squadron." It's part of the Department of Defense. "RESCUE." What's their mission if it's not to rescue people whether it be soldiers or civilians? Charge everyone for being rescued?? Or just the minute percentage of climbers who may need it? Or better, who YOU think should be charged?? Society has already decided to pay for the cost of climbers in accidents, houses on fire that need firemen, cops to keep us safe, the military to bomb Iraq, etc... It's been decided. We pay our taxes like the non-climbers. So we deserve the same services provided to us by the gov. There is no need to argue with a few boneheads about this as it's a moot point. However, if you try to change this, we will have a political battle over it. And frankly, we have bigger problems to tackle than the relatively low-cost of SAR services. (most of which have a big volunteer component) Those climbers did their thing. It did not work out to plan and they paid the price. We,the government, the people; did the right thing to expend money to search for them; no matter how foolish you think their actions were. Think about it, next time you drive too fast and have an accident, should we send a cop, ambulance, fire dept. to help you? Hell, we "don't even know you"!! In case, you want the answer...Hell yes, we should send rescue to you. We would be a sad excuse for a society if we did not. Many non-climbers want people to take "responsibility" and climbers have been doing so long before this accident and it is a pretty safe sport compared to something we never think about such as driving. Climbers pay taxes and vote. We have already paid for SAR services, should they ever be needed. Quote
Mr_Phil Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 It's easy to spend other peoples money. Let those people who want to help them pay with their own money. Or the climbers could but search and rescue insurance. Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know? Freedom (a concept climbers should understand and value) comes with the responsibility to pay your own way. As has been mentioned a number of times, the vast majority of SAR missions are not for climbers, but for "hikers, boaters, hunters" and others. If someone's kid gets lost in the woods, a large number of folks are going to band together and go looking for them. You can use your arguement (Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know?) to deny everything from the military, to welfare, to public education. Other people in this country feel the need to band together for the common good. Quote
OrganDonor Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Why are people bitching about the costs of search and rescue? What ever happened to people just helping people no matter what the cost. Isnt life priceless? If more people were willing to help others in need, without bitching and complaing the world might actually be a better place. On a final note, they said the rescue operation costs were around $100,000. So you as an Oregon taxpayer will probably fork out less than a $1 towards the cost of this particular rescue. Come on people grow up, and help one another!! Quote
Mr_Phil Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Isnt life priceless? To be honest, no. There are billions of people who have very inexpensive material needs that would greatly improve their lives. People in this country have tremendous resources, but yet aid agency beg for money. I'm not of the "use every available resource to keep this person alive one more second" camp either. Hey, if I'm looking pretty bad, pull the plug. Use the money for a party to celebrate life. Quote
kjlfaiejlifli Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Everyone bitches about taxes until the shoe is on the other foot. When someone they love is lost and can't be found, their tune will change. Quote
JayB Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 I think that alpine climbing is an elitist pursuit in the best sense possible. Mountains can't be bullied, bribed, flattered, deceived, enticed or coerced. The mountains could care less who you are, where you were born, what language you speak, what race you are, who your parents are, where you went to school, what kind of car you drive, and will mercilessly and repeatedly expose the gap between your true self and the self image that you've constructed to flatter your ego like nothing else. Strength, experience, determination, fitness, judgment, skill, honesty, humility, loyalty, and integrity. In every day life you can flatter yourself and pretend that you have all these traits without ever putting them to the test. Not so in the mountains. Truth. I'm down with everything...except for the first sentence. Specifically, "...elitest pursuit..." Unless I'm misunderstanding the context with which 'elitest' is used, I tend to think that anyone can pursue this...if they have the cojones. Elitist may not be the best term to convey the meaning that I was getting at. Meritocracy might be a bit closer to the mark. Quote
RSalar Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 (edited) Take by force (taxation) to help those who can't afford or who don't want to help themselves --- for the common good ... ?!! Sounds like communism ... take from each according to thier ability and give to each according to thier need --- wow -- and from members of group of climbers ... whom you would think could take care of themselves. And by the way I don't need nor want anyone's help -- especially from someone who is helping me out of a sense of moral guilt. Edited December 21, 2006 by RSalar Quote
RSalar Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Why are people bitching about the costs of search and rescue? What ever happened to people just helping people no matter what the cost. Isnt life priceless? If more people were willing to help others in need, without bitching and complaing the world might actually be a better place. On a final note, they said the rescue operation costs were around $100,000. So you as an Oregon taxpayer will probably fork out less than a $1 towards the cost of this particular rescue. Come on people grow up, and help one another!! No one is stopping you from giving as much as you want --- why don't you give everything you have to people with less? Do it then come back and tell us all about it. Quote
RSalar Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 You can use your arguement (Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know?) to deny everything from the military, to welfare, to public education. Other people in this country feel the need to band together for the common good. The military helps me --- get rid of all welfare -- public education is the reaon this country is in a downward spiral. You really think it is ok to steal from one person to give to another? Quote
Off_White Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 If you want to argue from the Libertarian fringe I'd urge you to head to the Spray forum where politics are more acceptable topics. Quote
twocents Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 It's easy to spend other peoples money. Let those people who want to help them pay with their own money. Or the climbers could but search and rescue insurance. Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know? Freedom (a concept climbers should understand and value) comes with the responsibility to pay your own way. The cost for local rescue operations should come from the governmental agencies that have already bilked the Oregon public. It's called thievery, and it's especially rampant in the N.E. United States, left coast, and Pacific Northwest where liberals abound. The first place politicians will look when they conspire to raise your taxes after already raising your sales tax, income tax, and property taxes again this year, is to then gauge the tourist, visitor, businessperson. That means exhorbitant taxes on hotels and rent cars, plus the additional sales taxes the state receives on recreational equipment that wouldn't be sold there if you didn't have mountains and scenery - snowmobiles, ski equipment, etc. One store owner said if you don't rent and want climbing gear, $2,000 easy. Plus all the tax on rentals. It's everywhere. Tax, tax, tax. If you add up the taxes from all the many thousands of tourists who visit Hood and the rest of Oregon, it should be far more than the $15,000 that was reported as the sheriff's budget for SAR. Get a grip Oregon. Where's all that tax money going? If the policitians say there's not enough money in the coffer for SAR, you should vote them out of office cause they sure can dole it out to people (via social programs) who sit on their butts all day and don't have their lives in immediate danger. As for the miltiary, they write it off to training, and the best training is real life, not some soldier laying in a known field somewhere pretending to be down. They'd rather have it that way and aren't complaining. It's all about money and competition with other states for tourist dollars. Start charging climbers for insurance, and viola, fewer climbers. Hood ain't the only mountain in the world. Quote
jmace Posted December 21, 2006 Posted December 21, 2006 Elitist because it is expensive? You can easily get started for under $500 hahaha, thats funny, Mountain Climbing for under 500$ hahaha I sacrifice things like a new car, or eating out regularly, new clothes, movies,etc. Hard sacrifices Carolyn...I think sometime we forget how good we have it Quote
MATT_B Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 Elitist because it is expensive? You can easily get started for under $500 hahaha, thats funny, Mountain Climbing for under 500$ hahaha Why not? I started with cheep crampons and an ice axe. Probably shoud have gotten a helmet too but didn't. You don't need an expensive backpack from REI and the latest greatest high tech clothing. Forget the GPS, learn to use a map and compas. Maybe a harness and belay device. A rope can come later once you have learned some of the basics. The point is you don't need much. Quote
jmace Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 how about a goretex jacket, long underwear, socks, mid layers, down jacket, boots, axe crampons..the list goes on even if you rent tools you still need a full array of outdoor gear and that doesnt get you out overnight or deal with snow shoes, skiis... My point being its not like any other easily accesible sport such as rugby, swimming, basketball, soccer where the entry costs are not overwhelming Quote
Fuzzymuffin Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 Yeah, in the long run any big sport or hobby is going to be expensive. But the goretex jacket, long underwear, socks, and other clothing items are stuff you need for any outdoors activities. Compare to the expensive ski suits and you come out about the same. How about horse sports, sailing, boating, kayaking. All cost. The cost of mountaineering can be low in the beginning and you can buy just a few pieces of equipment at a time. Ice axes and crampons are usually found at used equipment sales. So I still don't see cost as making mountaineering an elitist activity. Did these guys have to have the latest parka at REI? Quote
twocents Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 My note to Katie Couric and CBS NEWS. "How dare you ask a grieving widow on the brink of tears about such issues as $5 beacons and adequate climbing equipment. Your network and Katie have no shame, but it doesn't surprise me. I didn't like you before, and don't like you now. I regret that Karen even gave you the interview you don't deserve." Quote
sobo Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 It's easy to spend other peoples money. Let those people who want to help them pay with their own money. Or the climbers could but search and rescue insurance. Why force me to pay for people who I don't even know? Freedom (a concept climbers should understand and value) comes with the responsibility to pay your own way. Oh Crikey! Here we go again! I get so phuhkin' tired of saying this over and over and over and over and over ad nauseum. I'm just going to link to this other thread. Sixth post on Page 2. Now STFU, asshat! Quote
treknclime Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 Based upon this article http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2006/12/22/news/community/6loc04_climber.txt Kelly James sounds quite experienced, likable, and human. He had 4 kids... What a tough deal. Quote
jimlup Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 Yeah, it makes one wonder what the heck happened on top of Mt. Hood that got them in such trouble. They obviously knew what was going on so I wonder why they didn't have spare food and fuel in each pack. I thought Katie Couric's interview last night was respectful and tasteful. My heart goes out to the climbers families. Quote
Couloir Posted December 22, 2006 Posted December 22, 2006 Yeah, it makes one wonder what the heck happened on top of Mt. Hood that got them in such trouble. They obviously knew what was going on so I wonder why they didn't have spare food and fuel in each pack. Short of actually being there with those guys, this SAR thread does the best job of answering those particular questions. Quote
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