ketch Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 So I'm looking for some info. I know of the occasional injuries and worse that occured when a fig 8 device busted the side out of a biner. I'm pretty sure I have seen pics and a reference to articles on this site a while back. Searches havn't turned them up yet. Anyone out there have a link or help? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Right click --> save as  http://www.uiaa.ch/web.test/visual/Safety/SafComdownloads/Karabiner%20breakings%20with%20figure8.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strumpett Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 I wont let climbers use a figure 8 with my ropes. Too much twisting going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Another problem they have is if you aren't careful the rope can twist and roll around toward the smaller ring and completely lock up on you. If it's a free rappel and you have no way of taking the weight of the rope, you could be really stuck. Of course they make the version that has the little wings coming out the top to prevent this. But I still don't use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullster Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Interesting to note the firemen still use the Figure 8 as a personal (non-rescue load) belay device. Our team does not allow any belaying with the figure 8 and highly discourage using them for rappeling. Unfortunately there isn't much out there to use to rappel on 12mm ropes! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindude Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Pansies! Before the advent of heat-dissipating in-line devices, many of us used fig-8s for years (even decades for those of us older guys) to rap. In all the years I used them, I never had a rope lock up on my fig-8, nor did I ever have undue twists in my rope due to rapping. Folks must be doing some strange things. And you can safely belay with a Fig-8 provided the small hole is large enough it can be used like an in-line device. Fish on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Penny pindude retro-grouch, fuck it cost nothing really to buy a device that works better than an 8 for belaying and rapping. Talk about being cheap mofo who can't accept there are inprovement to belaying and rapping. I think the biggest problem with a figure 8 is they are a bulky heavy POS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Let's just all go back to carabiner brakes, gold line, arm rappels and the dulfersitz. And you'd better not own a harness. It's diaper slings for you! I'm with Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I agree with Ken that they're heavy bulky objects, and there are a number of other options out there, but Pindude is right too. I never had problems rappelling with them, and the key to belaying with an eight is as he described, send a bight through the small hole and clip a carabiner through it, like a bulky off balance sticht plate. It's not my instrument of choice these days, but I don't have any problems with them. Â Say what you want about carabiner brakes and the dulfersitz, they're good things to know, along with how to do a decent hip belay. Ever drop your ATC? A well rounded climber needs to have more than one trick in the bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Similar problems can occur with all devices. If I remember correctly, a Gri-gri blew apart a biner on a solo climber on El Cap several years ago. It was written up in the AINAM. Â The figure 8 may be more problematic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketch Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 Thanks for all the replies. Kurt and G those are the article and pics that I was thinking of. I thought I remembered a pic that had a biner gate actually blown as well. Â I am one of those that rapped on biner brakes and eights for a long time and didn't have any problems. But then again I try to always be extra attentive when I rap. Â Mullster good point on the fire service. The biggest challenge is that the NFPA is a consenses standard that changes as the varies fire chiefs around the country agree. That's probably enough said on that except to consider that most of them are not climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Similar problems can occur with all devices  ...with rigid connections to the belay biner, that can crossload the belay biner. It's not gonna happen with something like a regular ATC or Trango Pyramid that only has a lightweight keeper wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Similar problems can occur with all devices  ...with rigid connections to the belay biner, that can crossload the belay biner. It's not gonna happen with something like a regular ATC or Trango Pyramid that only has a lightweight keeper wire.  No, but many biners can turn 90* to the load, then suddenly the axis of the load is directly outward on the gate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 true dat but the pics i posted above were the mechansm of failure for the Fig-8 incidents referenced by the UIAA. So with a Fig-* you have twice as many ways to die or to kill your leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayno Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I have used an 8 for many years and never had trouble. A half dozen walls belaying and rappelling. Beats a hip belay. It seems that devices don't get much simpler. The key may be to avoid any clusterfunking. Keep your wits about you. Focus. Use the gear as it is designed, and it will probably work for you. I now use an atc and think they are fine for what they are intended. I still always have my 8 in the bottom of my pack for a backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Seriously, lugging around a figure eight as a backup? Learn the munter hitch and free yourself from the heavy-and-slow paradigm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayno Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Heavy and slow paradigm? You make it sound like carrying a couple of ounces around is a sign that I belong to some ancient tribe of nardowells. How much water do you carry? Did you take a dump this morning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonathanjarrett Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 People who use still use the figure eight baffle me. Once you have used a fork, why go back to chopsticks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayno Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Your right, now that I have an atc I'll use it till it no longer is functional. I never saw the need to replace my figure 8, It worked fine and I can't afford to go buy the latest piece of bling gear. I still use hexes also. I feel sorry for those yungins who couldn't lead a 5.9 without a rack of cams. I came from a generation that found it hard to throw anything usefull away. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketch Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 I am from that same generation. I also have I think a couple various eights at home. If there was a need I could dig them out. But for normal use I never count on it as a backup. Â Most of the time have a few biners that get more use for the weight carried and if I'm out of biners (save one) a munter works good. If you are counting weight it seems that they weigh the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WageSlave Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Learn the munter hitch and free yourself from the heavy-and-slow paradigm. Â I'm with this. You can't drop a munter hitch! Well. Maybe you could, but you'd be so screwed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindude Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 ...Fish on!  Penny pindude retro-grouch, fuck it cost nothing really to buy a device that works better than an 8 for belaying and rapping. Talk about being cheap mofo who can't accept there are inprovement to belaying and rapping. I think the biggest problem with a figure 8 is they are a bulky heavy POS.  I was trolling, but nothing I said was false. Gotcha there Ken, hook line and sinker (you too, Couloir). Don't know how you deduced all that about me...I may be a mofo, but I ain't cheap. And those that know me, know I'm pretty darned accepting--even of folks like you. Love ya Ken.  I, as well as many others, have gone through the whole progression of belay devices as they've been introduced to climbers over the years: Sticht plates, Bachli Seilbremse, Lowe Tuber, Trango Pyramid, Grigri, ATC, Reverso, and the list goes on with multiple variations and permutations including several devices for today's thinner, lighter ropes. It'd be embarrasing to tell you all the belay/rap devices I have. Looking back over the past year, I've been using at least 4 different ones depending on the type of climbing and diameter of rope(s): Grigri, ATC-Guide, ATC-XP, Mini-Reverso. As with a lot of climbing gear, it's personal preference. I'm thankful today we have so many choices.  Fig-8s still have their place. They're an indispensable tool for many in rescue, and they're still preferred by many rec climbers. Most important to know is that they're designed for rapping, not belaying, unless it's through the single hole in-line style like I mentioned before. Many out there still prefer 8's for rapping because of the amount of friction they place on the rope. In-line devices designed primarily for belaying produce a lot more friction for rapping--sometimes too much as most of you know--especially if you're rapping on two ropes of medium to large diameter.  Mullster: I can see that your team forbids fig-8 belaying, but I'm interested in knowing why your team "highly discourages them for rappelling." Who's your "team?"  In terms of weight, steel 8's designed for rescue may be heavy, but not 8's designed for regular climbing. Comparative weights of common belay/rap devices: BD Super 8 (a Fig-8 that also allows in-line style belaying): 87 g ATC: 50 g Reverso: 81 g ATC-Guide: 103 g Grigri: 225 g  Ketch's question has essentially been answered, especially for those that actually read the link provided by Kurt. I've never heard of a good fig-8 failing outside of normal use. The "breakings" in the article weren't "when a fig 8 device busted the side out of a biner," as Ketch corrected himself, but--in two cases--a small part of the sleeve of a locking biner breaking because of triaxial or non-end-to-end loading caused by operator error. I originally replied because it was obvious there was some misunderstanding and whining going on, without a more balanced view.  As mentioned, it comes down to knowing your equipment and it's limitations, being attentive, and thinking clearly and objectively.  --pindude, Defender of the Figure-Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 People who use still use the figure eight baffle me. Once you have used a fork, why go back to chopsticks? Actually, I'd ask you why did you go back to a fork after using chopsticks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Comparative weights of common belay/rap devices: BD Super 8 (a Fig-8 that also allows in-line style belaying): 87 g ATC: 50 g Reverso: 81 g ATC-Guide: 103 g Grigri: 225 g  B-52: 71 g Lightest device the supports belaying off the anchor with autolock mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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