Rap bolting vs Ground up.

[RuMR]

Is it a way of like cause you can't commit to love?

[kevbone]

Should the bachar-yerian get retroed? What a dumb question. First accents are coveted, broham. No, never touch another persons artwork, no matter how much of a bad job they did.

Alot of the climbs out there scare me, and like I said I am a whimp most of the time, so I move on and dont climb them!

[StevenSeagal]

Stevo, your using the same old argument and I call your bullshit, You are a tool.

 

I dont want a guarantee for saftey, but I want my chances to be great, not just good, but great that I will climb the next day and on and on and on.

 

You can be assured of doing so if you are in touch with your own capabilities, which you clearly are not, since you evidenltly tackle projects over your head and then claim your tactics used were necessary because it was 'too dangerous'. For who? YOU.

Bachar's routes have stood the test of time as one man's expression of route creation reflecting the ability of the climber, and not the fear and lack of ability. Nobody has gone back to rap bolt them because the route was unsafe for them, the routes just get climbed only by those competent to do so.

 

Kurt Albert puts bolts right next to cracks on mountain routes in Patagonia and elsewhere justifying it by saying he "wants to create a repeatable route for everyone else" by diminishing the amount of gear necessary. Well, thanks but no thanks, I'll be the judge of what I need. Thank you for predetermining the adventure for the rest of us. If it's too much, well then I guess I'll find something that is within my abilities, not drag it down to my level to fulfill my ego trip.

 

Amen Flyingpig- the lead zone is where the learning and growth takes place. Not on rappel with the drill where you predetermine each spot you might get scared.

 

 

 

Oh yeah on other thing, this may be a sport to you. But its a way of like for me.

 

Then stop living your life in fear.

[billcoe]

I agree Bill, but in the need for putting bolts in, would you perfer they were done on lead or rap? And I know you have place bolts before.

 

I don't really know Kev about all of that.

 

I guess I agree with both practices - area dependant. Like you, I usually see that a rap bolted line is safer and the bolts are usually better. I understand why GFA bolting gets done and the ethics and feeling of both the FA challenge and the remaining memory that imposes (good or bad) on every other climber who follows.

 

With technology however, you can do any ascent- making it significantly easier for yourself and every follower. You could, for instance, helicopter to the top of Great Trango Tower with a pneumatic jackhammer and bolting equipment, and

jackhammer holes, handholds and steps, and add bolts or protection every 4 feet. Everybody would then be able to climb what had heretofore been one of the hardest most challenging climbs in the world. If we accept that technology has some limits though, so as to allow all climbers the chance to max out and to fully and deeply engage their mental and physical challenges, then we as climbers should accept restrictions on technology. Otherwise, let’s just put in cablecars everywhere and we can hit any summit we want anytime without regard for skill, strength, skill and experience.

 

I get that and agree with it. What is the line though? What or how do we restrict ourselves so as to fully enjoy the challenges we desire?

 

However-

 

In some areas, every clean line has been done (or damn near it), and what's left is now the choss and shit. To get up it usually entails rapping down and prying off 300 lb death blocks and literally shoveling tons of dirt. You usually cannot do it without using those tactics. (I suspect I shoveled 5000- 10000 lbs of dirt off Bill's Buttress this season for instance). So if you have to rap to clean, why not put in the very best bolts you can, also on rap if it is needed? What would the advantage of doing a GFA and placing a bolt? The route was already ethically soiled, so to speak.....although it does increase the challenges to still then do a GFA lead instead of toproping it first, which is what I did for instance, despite having previewed the routes, sometimes for days and days earlier. Since that area is in a substantially high traffic area, inside of a large city, to say then to the large mass of climbers who will follow, "Well I ran the hell out of it and you have too if you want to lead it as well" seems fairly presumptuous. You could toprope it, if you felt it was unsafe or beyond the grade you'd want to shoot for though.

 

I see it both ways, and don't really get too wrapped up in how others want to do it. I though that the area you've been working on is real sweet, but I see some others disagree.

 

I think I've mellowed as I've aged. You start seeing that the end of the road is so close, so why sweat the small stuff. A sunny day, good companionship, flowing up the rock, challenging ourselves while communing in and enjoying some of the most amazing places: that's why we climb.

 

As long as we treat each other with respect and dignity, 90 percent of the good stuff is taken care of. The rest is the gravy on the ice cream so to speak.

 

That’s what I think.

 

[Alpinfox]

 

I can't believe you people are taking this bonehead's questions seriously.

 

[billcoe]

I can't believe you people are taking this bonehead's questions seriously.

 

 

You do not see the question as serious either?

[Alpinfox]

 

I don't discuss philosophy with simpletons.

[billcoe]

I don't discuss philosophy with simpletons.

 

Ahhhhhhhhhh, I'm out then.

 

I'll engage Rainman for that philosopical discussion I guess.

[RuMR]

I think I've mellowed as I've aged. You start seeing that the end of the road is so close, so why sweat the small stuff. A sunny day, good companionship, flowing up the rock, challenging ourselves while communing in and enjoying some of the most amazing places: that's why we climb

 

[kevbone]

“You can be assured of doing so if you are in touch with your own capabilities, which you clearly are not, since you evidenltly tackle projects over your head and then claim your tactics used were necessary because it was 'too dangerous'. For who? YOU.

Bachar's routes have stood the test of time as one man's expression of route creation reflecting the ability of the climber, and not the fear and lack of ability. Nobody has gone back to rap bolt them because the route was unsafe for them, the routes just get climbed only by those competent to do so.

 

Kurt Albert puts bolts right next to cracks on mountain routes in Patagonia and elsewhere justifying it by saying he "wants to create a repeatable route for everyone else" by diminishing the amount of gear necessary. Well, thanks but no thanks, I'll be the judge of what I need. Thank you for predetermining the adventure for the rest of us. If it's too much, well then I guess I'll find something that is within my abilities, not drag it down to my level to fulfill my ego trip.”

 

 

 

SS, once again you have confirmed my suspicion, you are a tool. And have a huuuugggeeee ego!

 

This thread is about rap vs ground up. Who the hell mentioned retroing the BY route. I don’t want that. Do you? Man, everyone always references this climb, the same folks who bitch about it, will NEVER climb it. Including me! I don’t care what happens to a climb I will never see or climb.

 

Tackle projects over my head. Bullshit. I would like to see you lead ground up on one of my routes of my choice and watch you bolt it on lead, that would be entertainment.

 

I think we agree on a lot of things, this Kurt albert dude is a tool also. Do you think I agree with this way of putting routes up? I don’t!

[mattp]

If you think he's a bonehead, Fox, and if that makes you disinclined to discuss this issue with him, simply ignore the discussion. Maybe this is a tired old topic for many of you. Fine. But maybe there are one or two people around here who might actually like to discuss it. Why not let them?

 

Maybe there is nothing wrong with a thread where everybody tries to one-up each other with new ways to bash each other. There are certainly plenty of them, and lots of you folks enjoy it all.

 

Maybe this is and should be "one of those threads." Maybe not. Maybe it was nothing but a troll in the first place. If so, I still say: why not let somebody take a stab at the matter?

[RuMR]

his point was about the STYLE not about going back and retro-ing it...

 

that was what your whole point of this stupid thread was about right?

Edited August 30, 2006 by RuMR

[kevbone]

"that was what your whole point of this stupid thread was about right? "

 

Yes

[RuMR]

so tell me, which has better style, the BY or some bolted choss pile on a road cut?

[kevbone]

I will say this: Ground up bolting is definitely bolder than rap bolting. But bolder is not always better. Injuries happen on both styles of climbing. I was merely stating, I have had more fun (this is the only reason for climbing, in my book) on a rap bolted climb than one that was put up on lead.

[kevbone]

so tell me, which has better style, the BY or some bolted choss pile on a road cut?

 

 

Your going to have to be more specific.

[RuMR]

well FWIW, i sport climb a ton and do other climbing as well...

 

actually, i don't do much now...

[StevenSeagal]

And have a huuuugggeeee ego!

 

We all do. The key is to know the nature of your ego and to master it. You are not very Zen...not yet.

 

 

This thread is about rap vs ground up. Who the hell mentioned retroing the BY route. I don’t want that. Do you? Man, everyone always references this climb, the same folks who bitch about it, will NEVER climb it. Including me! I don’t care what happens to a climb I will never see or climb.

 

So you don't care...which shows how disconnected you are. Failing to care ignores that the style in which it has been put up sets the bar for the next person that comes along. It has something to teach others, and acts as a source of inspiration, or lack thereof. Evidently you don't take advice well and have no interest in learning from others. Personally, I'm inspired by someone giving all they have to making a route a reality, especially in the form of self-mastery. As Billcoe points out, sometimes in certain arenas rap bolting is the only way due to choss, etc, but a blanket statement that rap bolting is the only way to do it shows a closed mind.

 

Tackle projects over my head. Bullshit. I would like to see you lead ground up on one of my routes of my choice and watch you bolt it on lead, that would be entertainment.

 

Oh please cut with the juvenile dick measuring. First of all, I've never drilled a bolt in my life, and I probably never will. It isn't my way. That doesn't mean I won't happily climb routes that others have bolted, even rap bolted routes that I know someone else could have bolted on lead if they had gotten there first.

 

I think there's little to argue that ground up is the purest style.If rap bolting some dung heap is the only way- so be it, but even in that case the bolter should always first ask him/herself: "does this piece of rock really need to be climbed?" Access is threatened and we're getting squeezed everywhere. A lot more thoughtfulness should be happening in light of that, but armadas of power drill wielding young climbers on rappel, obsessed with the glory of FA's are not going to help improve the situation. Nor are they going to inspire climbers to embolden themselves on lead or in life.

[DirtyHarry]

Its a stupid fucking question in the first place. Both techniques are appropriate in certain circumstances. You can fuck up a route and the rock using either technique. Don't put in inapropriate bolts and don't bolt over other people's lines.

[kevbone]

"First of all, I've never drilled a bolt in my life"

 

nuf said. Get off the thread.

[catbirdseat]

Its a stupid fucking question in the first place. Both techniques are appropriate in certain circumstances. You can fuck up a route and the rock using either technique. Don't put in inapropriate bolts and don't bolt over other people's lines.

It's not a stupid question. Sometimes it's a no-brainer and which method to employ and sometimes it is a choice based on style. The interesting discussion comes out of how one decides what style to take and how the choice affects the quality of the route.

[StevenSeagal]

"First of all, I've never drilled a bolt in my life"

 

nuf said. Get off the thread.

 

Make me.

[DirtyHarry]

"First of all, I've never drilled a bolt in my life"

 

nuf said. Get off the thread.

 

You think your special b/c you have established bolted routes? Just means you're too much of a poofer to do any real climbing.

[Raindawg]

BIG LOU climbs Rainier from the bottom up, not the top down. End of story.

[Mr_Phil]

Actually, he probably drove to Paradise, therefore climbing it from the middle.