Yellow Jacket Tower Squabble

[robotslave]

This is the point I chose to split this debate off from the Accident in Leavenworth thread that inspired this somewhat wide ranging tussle about matters not directly related to the accident. Feel free to continue your wrasslin' here, but leave the current accident and it's severely injured victim out of it please. -- Off White

 

My best to the injured climber, may he make a swift recovery!

 

The first pitch is as catbirdseat says, dirty, sandy, but not steep (4th class i suppose). I roped up, but placed no pro.

 

To answer Gary's question:

 

The final pitch is notoriously hard to protect. There is a shallow crack that you can place a small nut in. I did when i climbed it last year, but it was pretty psychological. There used to be a pocket that a small tricam would go in, but it appears to have blown out. Its a very short friction slab, maybe two moves of 5.4 (?) on a summit block sitting on top of the tower. There has been talk of putting in a bolt to protect the final move, probably not a bad idea.

 

As to the climb: its a good place to take novices looking for adventure. The location is kinda cool, you get a good view up to Rat Creek drainage and the patagonia-esqe spires up there -- the Mole, etc.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Off_White

[DirtyHarry]

Its a very short friction slab, maybe two moves of 5.4 (?) on a summit block sitting on top of the tower. There has been talk of putting in a bolt to protect the final move, probably not a bad idea.

 

Let no 5.4 go unbolted!!

[Crackbolter]

I think the best option isn't to bolt the route because the Mountaineers use the climb in their curriculum but to evaluate the way The Mountaineers are doing their curriculums. I'd like to see the statistics of Mountaineer outing related injuries and deaths in the history of the club. Climb with the Mounties and you are going to epic.

[Gary_Yngve]

I disagree. The Mounties have not had any recent problems that I can recall on the other classic easy rock climbs (Tooth, Ingalls, SEWS). There's just something about YJT that causes problems. I don't see what's wrong with a bolt. The Mounties certainly weren't the ones who placed the bolt on the fin of S Arete SEWS. Maybe you think that the folks who placed that bolt are incompetent and prone to epics?

[sprocket]

This was my first "rock" climb as a basic student with the Mounties, done as alternative to the Tooth which was covered with ice and snow at the time. I had heard stories of all sorts of mayhem on this climb, falls, route finding errors etc. so I was a bit apprehensive. It turned out to be a very pleasant outing and seemed very safe. The leader had done the climb before so we had none of the route finding problems associated with the climb. He also fixed a line up the 4th class "hidden" gully so the rest of us could safely ascend it. He also led the final exposed pitch and set up a top rope for everyone else. There is a bolt on the summit. The final move is only a few feet off a shelf where you can place gear at your feet. Maybe intimidating to new leaders but certainly not seriously dangerous or in need of a bolt at that point. You'd still probably hit the ledge if you fell just with rope stretch. The things that seem to get people in trouble are the above mentioned route finding, the short exposed scramble at the headwall (one climb leader apparently fell down climbing this, we rapped it, there's a huge well rooted tree above with slings), the very loose gully above the headwall, the above mentioned summit pitch and then the main pitch is a bit stiff and sustained for typical Mounty basic climbs. It has a nice crack to the left but easier climbing out on the face to the right. I think there was a leader that took a fall here too (I assume he was leading in boots not sticky rubber. Anyway, short story long, it's got a few challenges and is not interesting enough of a climb for experienced climbers so it probably ends up being done more often by new rope leader. I think if I was to do this as a Mounty climb, it would only be with a leader that I have climbed with before and trusted their judgement and ability. But considering the number of accidents recently, several which involve non-Mounties, not sure it's fair to criticise, especially before all the facts are in. Let's hope he recovers fully and quickly.

[Blake]

I disagree. The Mounties have not had any recent problems that I can recall on the other classic easy rock climbs (Tooth, Ingalls, SEWS).

 

Sharkfin 7/05

[Tony_Bentley]

Gary, a single bolt anywhere is fine. Adding a bolt isn't going to keep people from getting injured though. The point is, it isn't the nature of the route that causes injuries but the climbers themselves. Avoiding an epic is through your learning experiences and other people's experiences and wisdom, not by adding a bolt.

 

...the very loose gully above the headwall, the above mentioned summit pitch and then the main pitch is a bit stiff and sustained for typical Mounty basic climbs.

 

So the statement above regarding the way The Mountaineers are doing their curriculums seems to have some merit.

 

Last year on Sharkfin a group of climbers were injured because a rappel anchor failed. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/475282/an/0/page/0#475282

 

It wouldn't be fair to say that either this or last year's incident is because of the way The Mountaineers are teaching their classes. A slip in a "no-falls" zone will certainly teach a new climber the do's and don'ts of climbing.

 

People are "guided" up mountains and rocks all of the time. I certainly am no exception. Last week for instance...

[Figger_Eight]

"Gary, a single bolt anywhere is fine."

 

I might have to disagree with this one...

[Tony_Bentley]

Taken out of context.

[olyclimber]

It is taken out of context, but you left yourself pretty wide open with opening with a statement like that... As a stand alone statement, I have to disagree too.

[armin]

I do not think bolting routes adds to more safety. If you think a specific route is too dangerous for you, don't climb it. Choose one that is easy to protect and well within your abilities. Respect the way the first ascensionists did the route. Let's say I feel scared on the slab move of Prusik's west ridge. Would it bother you if I added a bolt there? Just one? The same is true for SEWS's fin. I am disgusted that somebody would put a bolt in such a beautiful piece of rock (easy too!).

Climbing is dangerous. However, most accidents happen due to human error and not because something is hard to protect. There's a lot you can do to increase safety while climbing, but start with yourself and not by adding bits and pieces to the rock.

[Gary_Yngve]

I disagree. The Mounties have not had any recent problems that I can recall on the other classic easy rock climbs (Tooth, Ingalls, SEWS).

 

Sharkfin 7/05

 

They weren't on a rockclimb when that accident happened. They were off-route in a shitty gully.

 

The Mounties did an extensive review of their practices following the accident and had several widely respected non-Mounties on the review board. The conclusions were that for the most part, the Mounties are doing most everything right. They did identify some areas for improvement and are in the process of implementing them, including smaller party sizes.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I disagree. The Mounties have not had any recent problems that I can recall on the other classic easy rock climbs (Tooth, Ingalls, SEWS).

 

Sharkfin 7/05

 

They weren't on a rockclimb when that accident happened. They were off-route in a shitty gully.

 

The Mounties did an extensive review of their practices following the accident and had several widely respected non-Mounties on the review board. The conclusions were that for the most part, the Mounties are doing most everything right. They did identify some areas for improvement and are in the process of implementing them, including smaller party sizes.

 

Good point, Gary. You can do everything "right" and still die in the mountains. It's ridiculous to jump to conclusions about someone based on pure gossip as soon as an accident occurs and blame them for being a novice, or doing something wrong.

[DirtyHarry]

The Mounties did an extensive review of their practices following the accident and had several widely respected non-Mounties on the review board. The conclusions were that for the most part, the Mounties are doing most everything right.

 

I'm not widely respected or anything, and I agree with KK about the you can do everything right and still get the chop, but in the Sharksfin incident, the climbers had three folks fully weighing one slung block. At the time, that may have been the best option, but in general that is not the smartest thing to do.

[Bug]

This thread has outlived it's usefulness unless new information surfaces.

[will_climb_4_views]

I doubt anyone would disagree with that now that we know the outcome. You're overlooking decisionmaking in an emergency situation and what the party faced. In the case of Sharkfin, a strong 220-pound climber had difficulty controlling an initial assisted rappel with a 130-pound injured climber, certainly not a situation where you expect too much of an issue. If we delve a bit deeper than the obvious, maybe we can get past the "duh" factor and figure out how to influence better decisionmaking. Ditto for YJT.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The Mounties did an extensive review of their practices following the accident and had several widely respected non-Mounties on the review board. The conclusions were that for the most part, the Mounties are doing most everything right.

 

I'm not widely respected or anything, and I agree with KK about the you can do everything right and still get the chop, but in the Sharksfin incident, the climbers had three folks fully weighing one slung block. At the time, that may have been the best option, but in general that is not the smartest thing to do.

 

my comment was more about YJT. we knew little details and immediately everyone assumes the injured person made a bunch of bad decisions and caused his own accident

 

regarding Sharkfin, someone recently made the comment to me about the idea that the climbers were in the "wrong gulley" and "off route" was total BS. According to him there is "no wrong gulley". Not to say that I agree totally with that, but there is a point to consider there. If you are "off route" it could mean that you just have different objective hazards to consider, different risks, and need to adapt, calling on your training and experience to do what you need to do to minimize risk. On a related note, I believe the mounties Whitehorse Mountain climbing route explicitly states that you should not even attempt the Whitehorse Glacier as it is simply too dangerous. you are supposed to ascent via the Lone Tree pass route. There was just a posting on this board about some folks going up the Whitehorse Glacier, and I know folks who have done it. Different route or "off route" can be subjective.

[rockguy]

To answer Gary's question:

 

The final pitch is notoriously hard to protect . There is a shallow crack that you can place a small nut in. I did when i climbed it last year, but it was pretty psychological. There used to be a pocket that a small tricam would go in, but it appears to have blown out. Its a very short friction slab, maybe two moves of 5.4 (?) on a summit block sitting on top of the tower. There has been talk of putting in a bolt to protect the final move, probably not a bad idea.

Holy fucking shit--you've got to be kidding! There’s nothing notorious or difficult about protecting Yellow Jacket tower’s final pitch. The idea of putting in a bolt to protect the final move is ridiculous! If a climber is unable to adequately protect YJT’s final 5.4 pitch then they are in over their head and should not be leading in the first place. I’ll tell you right now, if I EVER hear of a bolt place on that pitch, I’ll run up there an chop that fucking bolt so fast it’ll make your head spin. What a poor precedent placing such a bolt would create. The thought of bolting a readily protectable 5.4 (5.4!!!) move, just because an inordinate number of newbies piss themselves there, makes me want to hurl.

 

The most difficult part of this climb is trying to find the approach trail near the Rat Creek Boulder. The reason why people frequently get hurt on YJT is because it’s accosted each year by a bunch of idiot Mountaineer (I know, I know, not all Mountaineers are idiots, true, but most that I’ve met are) newbie leaders who fancy themselves “prepared” to take on such climbing endeavors because they’ve completed the Mountaineers “basic rock leader” requirements. These newbie basic rock leaders (many of whom do not have enough climbs under their belts to be imparted with adequate climbing wisdom), get together a group of basic students (folks, many of whom, have never climbed anything), and try to knock off a climb that, given its easy 5.4 rating, they assume will be a walk in the park. This is a recipe for disaster; a bunch of bumbling goofs, half of whom have something to prove, running around YJT posturing. YJT’s easy 5.4 rating coupled with the fact that it’s an approved “basic climb” by the Mountaineers unfortunately seduces many to underestimate the climb. Again, it’s not difficult, but to the inexperienced, it’s not just another 5.4 climb at Exit 38.

[rockguy]

The Mounties did an extensive review of their practices following the accident and had several widely respected non-Mounties on the review board. The conclusions were that for the most part, the Mounties are doing most everything right.

Yeah, they're doing something right--guess that's why both my mentors from when I was a member are dead now. This organization is dangerous--for the love of god stay away.

[octavius]

There’s nothing notorious or difficult about protecting Yellow Jacket tower’s final pitch.

Since you brought it up... what is your prefered method, specifically, to protecting final pitch?

[ryland_moore]

If I remember correctly, Sharkfin wasn't the only bad accSident Mounties had recently. I was up on Rainier in mid-August and the rangers were flying har out of Sherman. The tents and all gear were covered with a ton of blood and supposedly Mounties fell roped up on the traverse over to the saddle b/w the summit and Liberty Cap. I belkieve 2 mounties were injured and required rescue. Mayibe it is not more than the average person, but when you have a group that really is not all that big compared to the entire climbing community and look at the number of accidents recently invovling Mounties, one ccccccbegins to wonde. I think I only heard of five big accidents last summer in the Cascades and two of them involved Mounties outings and one involved members of Mounties. Hope the climber f4rom YJT recovers quickly.

[DirtyHarry]

There’s nothing notorious or difficult about protecting Yellow Jacket tower’s final pitch.

Since you brought it up... what is your prefered method, specifically, to protecting final pitch?

 

Sick 5.4 technique.

[Gary_Yngve]

The Mounties lead A LOT of climbs. So does RMI. Both have incidents every year. If you look at the past ten years (past year is meaningless statistically), the Mounties have not had an abnormal number of accidents.

 

If I recall correctly, last year an RMI party required assistance too from a client falling and pulling the guide down as well. I guess I should wonder about them too.

 

Oh, and if you say the Mounties are unsafe, what about Jim Wickwire? We can take statistics anywhere. Sheesh.

[RuMR]

Post deleted by RuMR

[RuMR]

The Mounties lead A LOT of climbs. So does RMI. Both have incidents every year. If you look at the past ten years (past year is meaningless statistically), the Mounties have not had an abnormal number of accidents.

 

If I recall correctly, last year an RMI party required assistance too from a client falling and pulling the guide down as well. I guess I should wonder about them too.

 

Oh, and if you say the Mounties are unsafe, what about Jim Wickwire? We can take statistics anywhere. Sheesh.

 

but gary, their policy of having former students (with minimal experience after their first round of classes) teach new students is just asking for trouble...couple that with inflexible dogma about how things MUST be done and you are really courting disaster...

 

The other thing that i have serious issues with, is that they are so damn focused on the technicalities (wrong word) of climbing that they don't teach the actual act of climbing very well...maybe if they spent a wee bit more time on this aspect of climbing (how to climb, and this is really where last year's class is woefully unprepared to teach this years class), we would see less of these "slips" on 3rd and 4th class terrain. Dirty harry is not far off the mark about 5.4 technique being the protection for 5.4 climbing...don't fall, you won't get smucked.

 

several posters mentioned that (NOLSe i believe) that getting prepared on single pitch but harder terrain before venturing ontto multipitch is a good way...i agree

 

Also, and i hate to sound like a punk so don't take this the wrong way, but some people just should not be climbers...just cuz you got the dollars does not mean you'll make a good climber...