Can you say......

[ken4ord]

bolted cracks..........

 

 

A few more pictures here.

[DirtyHarry]

shit man that's almost as bad as 11worth.

[catbirdseat]

"Dolorite pillars". That is a very sad sort of rock.

 

"Practically untouched for a billions years, or more". Hmmm...

[Johnny_Tuff]

 

WAAAAHHHHHHH!!! There's bolts next to cracks on a crag we know nothing else about that we will never climb at anyway! WAH! WAH! WAAAAHHHHHHH!!!

 

[matt_m]

 

WAAAAHHHHHHH!!! There's bolts next to cracks on a crag we know nothing else about that we will never climb at anyway! WAH! WAH! WAAAAHHHHHHH!!!

 

 

[ken4ord]

 

WAAAAHHHHHHH!!! There's bolts next to cracks on a crag we know nothing else about that we will never climb at anyway! WAH! WAH! WAAAAHHHHHHH!!!

 

 

Yeah I would be crying to if I knew that I was never going to explore this great world we live in. Poor bastard.

[G-spotter]

hey, isn't that vantage

[dan_forester]

"remove all trace of your presence after climbing in the area"

 

cool looking rock, though.

[dan_forester]

"Dolorite pillars". That is a very sad sort of rock.

 

CBS, that's way too highbrow a joke for a mullet & NASCAR climbing board like this one...

[Dechristo]

bold words from a guy with a mullet on his chin

[G-spotter]

Dolerite is roughly basalt.

[Dechristo]

slacker's on the Dolerite

[Squid]

Heh. I was just wondering if there's any climbing along the SA/Namibia border.

 

I guess I'll have to leave the NW trad ethics at home, and do as the Romans do.

[EWolfe]

Don't forget your bolt gun there, Sylvester!

[111]

anyone notice that all the routes are four star? WTF! it can't all be that good. Sounds like someone who didnt know what they were doing developed this crag.

[matt_m]

anyone notice that all the routes are four star? WTF! it can't all be that good. Sounds like someone who didnt know what they were doing developed this crag.

 

I see 2,3,4 and 5 stars...

 

Let's not cc.com armchair eithic this one to death....

[crackers]

I'm willing to spewguess that a guy named February was involved and that he knows more about climbing that you or I do and that he also knows how expensive it is to buy climbing gear outside of the USA. No real offense intended, but...Have you ever heard of Table Mountain? Anyway, I doubt that they intend the routes to be "global" stars...as is often the case for areas that aren't really worth visiting, people have been known to give "local" stars.

[DirtyHarry]

I'm willing to spewguess that a guy named February was involved and that he knows more about climbing that you or I do

 

You mean you. You don't know us.

 

Furthermore, you actually think rockclimbing is going to become popular among indiginous locals? And that the only thing preventing them from taking up the sport is lack of removable protection? Seems like vast majority of people who will be climbing in these exotic locations will be foreigners from the west, or relatively wealthy white Afrikaaners.

 

Hasn't that always been a rationalization for bolting places where removable pro would work? Don't be elitist - bolt it for the masses.

 

Seems like a stupid excuse to me.

[crackers]

You mean you. You don't know us.

 

Furthermore, you actually think rockclimbing is going to become popular among indiginous locals?

 

You're right, I don't know you, but I have met Ed and a few other black and white south african and namibian climbers when I was part of a group that hosted them in New York some year ago.

 

And I have spent a couple of years working on developing climbing areas in developing countries. And yes, the locals ability to afford gear is a major issue in having them take up the sport. I've found that ethics regarding rock, style and culture don't always travel as well as one might like, in both directions.

 

I did not mean to be harsh, I intended to be real. According to my conversations with Ed, membership in colored climbing clubs back in the apartheid era was roughly similar in numbers to membership in the white clubs. I really don't know enough about that to make informed comments though. What I do know about is the costs of a cam versus a quickdraw in the developing world, and the locals' choices that they make dependent on their values. After all, it's their rock, not mine.

[DirtyHarry]

After all, it's their rock, not mine.

 

True. And it surely isn't fair for us to impose our ethics on climbers on a whole other continent (as if we could if we wanted to). But, for argument sake, I still think the reasoning you posit is faulty. I doubt few here would agree that we should bolt all the cracks in the U.S. simply because it would allow more people to get take up climbing, and would make climbing a much more populist and mainstream activity. Why should it be different elsewhere?

 

Additionally, at this crag, aren't there enough faces and lines that are not cracks that can be bolted? I doubt that the rock is so fractured that the only climbable lines are cracks that could also be protected with removable pro.

[crackers]

But, for argument sake, I still think the reasoning you posit is faulty. I doubt few here would agree that we should bolt all the cracks in the U.S. simply because it would allow more people to get take up climbing, and would make climbing a much more populist and mainstream activity. Why should it be different elsewhere?

 

I certainly agree that we shouldn't bolt cracks except in extremely special circumstances in the USA. We are rich. And I think our bolt wars are mostly over.

 

A list of the prices of gear might help explain why a lot of stuff in Turkey --a country that has a very strong ethical framework and a pretty strong economy-- got bolted as recently as three years ago, and these are the prices my partner charged...you can ask Erden when (if?) he resurfaces here about Oral.

 

BD cam: $125-$150

BD biner: $15-25

WC cam: $85

Petzl Quick Draw: $25

Climbing Shoes: $165

WC nuts: ~$20 EACH.

 

I think that should give the picture. Ropes were too expensive. There were only a handful imported a year because they were literally too expensive. The kicker was always the 23% sales tax on whatever you bought, which would make your 300 rope cost almost 400 bucks. If you were buying a $1k of gear, it would be cheaper to fly to Germany, except that you couldn't get a visa, so...

 

Things have changed rapidly in Turkey as a few importers decided to go for volume. Until these importers changed the rules of the game, it was a common assumption that 90% of people would stop climbing when they graduated college because they couldn't afford to buy the gear that they borrowed from their school's club (shoes, harness, rope, everything.)

 

At the same time, the locals have a very strong traditional ethic when and where they can afford it. They have a clear understanding for themselves of what that means and rich and fervant (read flamewar) debate about the place of bolts in the sport. The old climbers --I am making a massive generalization here, ok?-- tend to be anti bolt and the young climbers tend to be pro-bolt in climbing gardens only. There tends to be an observable difference in disposable income that is strongly correlated to an individual's view of bolts. Correlation is not causation, and the above paragraph represents a massive stereotype based solely on my experiences over the past ten to twelve years.

 

Basically, I wouldn't ever want to bolt a crack, but when a poor kid tells me that he saved up his money for two frigging years to buy my second hand rope, well, i'm going to at least listen to his ethics before I spout about mine. I do think that the world's rock is a non-renewable resource that should be available to every climber. I'd love to see the least damage possible done to it.

 

But I also remember what it means to my local friends when i donate time, money and gear to organizations devoted to climbing in the developing world and what a huge impact it can have in hearts, minds (and just maybe ethics )...

 

As for bolts next to cracks, I have seen bolts on crappy sandstone here in the states, and bolts in Canada next to a cracks that don't seem to bother people too much, but, hey, i've never touched the rock mentioned in the OP.

 

If my reasoning about how I deal with helping out my friends overseas is faulty, I'm open to constructive criticism, and I'm always willing to have people tag along when I'm doing "pro-bono" stuff overseas.

 

graham williams

signed cause i take this kinda seriously...

 

btw: please, no offense is intended in my posts, if we have differing views, fine, like I said, I'm willing to listen.

[Peter_Puget]

Crackers -

 

Have you considered the purchasing power in post ww2 eastern europe and sandstone ethics.

[DirtyHarry]

Your point is definitly well taken. Such practices will most likely never effect me or most people who post here. But I would still argue there exists a wide range of alternatives to such blatant bolting of cracks.

 

And as you point out, its not like Americans have clean hands on this issue either.

[crackers]

Have you considered the purchasing power in post ww2 eastern europe and sandstone ethics.

 

Absolutely. Interestingly enough, there is a formation of the stuff in SW Turkey, and the accepted ethic there is the same as in elbsandstein areas. And there are sport crags in the Pfalz areas of Eastern Europe where you could use cams and other 'modern' pro.

 

But, in the limestone and granite that comprises most of Turkey and the Caucasus, well, they've got different things going on...

[Peter_Puget]

The cost of pro then doesn't determine ethics.....

 

I know people in Eastern Europe who made their own gear out of scrap metal. I have made stoppers out of scrap metal. I made home made pitons in the early 70s.Several friends have. In the early 80s I bought a bunch of home made cams. I wonder why this pattern sn't followed.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Peter_Puget