Vantage Grades

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Came across this site. What does everybody think about these grades.

 

http://www.fivenineclimber.com/cragging/northwest_cragging/vantage_gradedlist.htm

[whirlwind]

the grades in the book are definatly high but due to the gear on the route there (placements arn't all that good and i've seen many pieces walk both back into the cracks and walk to the point of falling out)

i would change the grades, sure after climbing their a bit you get use to the placements and the route get easier

but for the sake of people that havn't, its better to error on the high side.

[Blake]

I thought air guitar was .10a

[MCash]

With the exception of Air Guitar, (which I would put at 5.9) the grades listed on that site are fairly inline with Leavenworth grades. No need to change them from the guidebook though, Vantage has a long history of softer grades.

[ashw_justin]

I'd just like to say, after my first visit last weekend, that these are really fun, friendly gear routes, and that what they are rated doesn't matter as long as you enjoy them.

[eric8]

kinda of funny that on the same web page they say canary is 3 pitches, and has a move that is at least 5.10

[catbirdseat]

They ain't too consistent then are they? Canary is like two and a half pitches with a 50 m rope, right?

[G-spotter]

I have found the grade of Canary to vary significantly depending on how many of the jams on the first pitch have wasps in them.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Air Guitar was the grade that really grabbed my attention. One grade soft usually seems about right for vantage, but two is getting really soft. I think most of us consider LW/Index grades to be about right, with index being maybe a hair stiffer on average. Comparing Air Guitar to P1 Lizard, P1 Canary, or even Classic Crack, maybe 5.8 isn't too far off. I have only followed Air Guitar, so my analysis could be a bit off.

 

BTW, I think P1 Canary is a little stiff for 5.8, but definitely in line with general Castle grades and not vastly harder than most other LW 5.8s. Can you really top out canary in one pitch from Saber ledge? We did it as three pitches when I climbed it.

[sprocket]

I can only comment on the routes I’ve led (CTT) or followed (PK, AG, & G&M). CTT seems pretty easy for 5.8, more in line with Tieton 5.7’s but I don’t think it is so soft that it should be downgraded but can’t quibble too much if it was. AG seems to be soft for 5.10a and more in line with something like Inca Roads at Tieton which is solid for 5.9. I think it is harder if you avoid stepping on the boulder plus it is fairly committing on lead because the pro is thin down low and the landing isn’t exactly nice. I personally think PK is a bit harder because the wide section is a bit longer and definitely not a fist crack for me. I think both seem about right at 5.9. I think they are both harder than say Classic Crack and Dogleg Crack at Icicle Creek which are both 5.8+. I think G&M is harder than both, mainly because it is longer and more sustained, not sure if it is a benchmark 5.10a but seems stiff enough not to be downgraded. Just my two cents worth. As stated previously, it’s more important if they are enjoyable routes and I think these all are.

Edited March 28, 2006 by sprocket

[Gary_Yngve]

I've led SV&aM, PiYP, PK, AG, G&M, SG, and Sens.

 

My feelings are:

 

Of PK, AG, and G&M, AG is the easiest and G&M the hardest.

For AG, I entirely faceclimb the first 15 feet. G&M seems the hardest because the crack seems the least regular of all three. They all should be somewhere around 5.9.

 

SG should be a 5.9. It's the standard 5.9 grovel/thrutch rating.

 

Sensimilla seemed worthy of a 10c to me. I don't trust Vantage pro the way I trust Index pro, so I found myself placing more pieces and visually inspecting the pieces I place (awkward when you're centered between two cracks).

 

I think PiYP is easier than 5.9, and SV&aM is easier than PiYP. Who cares whether PiYP is 5.8 or 5.7. I think the most important thing is to have grades consistent within a crag and not worry about Vantage grades vs Lworth grades vs Index grades.

 

I should also note that as my climbing has matured and I have also climbed more in the gym, Vantage has gotten much easier for me. Instead of thinking crack == jam as I used to, I take advantage of face climbing, stemming, etc., when they present an opportunity. On the other hand, on the classic 10a handcracks at Index, it's pretty much jam jam jam, no other choices.

[ashw_justin]

[colt45]

Can you really top out canary in one pitch from Saber ledge? We did it as three pitches when I climbed it.

I have always done it as 2 pitches with a 60m rope, i.e. one pitch from Saber ledge (I think every route on upper castle rock goes in 2 pitches).

 

From Saber ledge you would come up slightly short of the summit with a 50m but the last bit is an easy scramble.

[mattp]

I don't think my 60 meter rope reaches the top of the rock from Saber Ledge on the Canary route.

 

---

 

By the way, you guys typing all the abbreviations: I know it is all the rage but for us old guys whose memory is dim it is really a pain in the neck to have to think: What is PK now anyway? Is it that hard to spell out a route name?

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Regarding rope length, that is what I remembered Matt. It seemed pretty logical to belay where you did.

 

fading memory translator

PIYP=Party in Your Pants

CTT=Crossing the Threshhold

TUIB=Tangled up in Blue

PK=Pony Keg

SG=Steel Grille

AG=Air Guitar

G&M=George and Martha

[Gary_Yngve]

Seven Virgins & a Mule, Party in Your Pants, Crossing the Threshold, Air Guitar, Pony Keg, George & Martha, Steel Grill.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Gary=Too Slow

[tomtom]

Grad students.

[JayB]

I nominate Tieton for Washington's all-purpose grading standard for cracks. I've never lead anything there that seemed outrageously sandbagged - stiff, maybe, but not sandbagged - but I've also never lead anything there that seemed soft either.

 

If nothing else I'd nominate Inca Roads for the 5.9 reference.

[mattp]

I think what I've climbed at Tieton is mostly pretty accurate but seem to recall there were some moderates, maybe "5.7" or something, that are pretty damn stiff for their given grade. Anybody else run into these?

[chucK]

I don't think my 60 meter rope reaches the top of the rock from Saber Ledge on the Canary route.

 

That could very well be the case with your "60m" rope, but I'm pretty sure you can get there with most people's 60's.

 

That said, the top is somewhat ill-defined, so YMMV...etc.

[EWolfe]

The new, friendlier ChucK with his more socially available avatar pic!

[mattp]

Yes, I remember getting stuck just shy of the top on one or two occasions -- also suffering some rope drag issues. Of course, I habitually break the "second" pitch of Midway into two, also, even though I think a 60m will reach the top from Jello Tower.

 

When cragging I often favor breaking pitches for easing rope drag or facilitating communication with partners, etc. rather than trying to stretch them out to say "I climbed Outer Space as four pitches" or whatever.

[LUCKY]

ahaa!! the new climbing year must be officially be in ...smack talk'n about Vantage ...and the never ending squabble about rateings

Yo us old fat fart's that can't get up shit dudes, like those soft rateings, and those choss routes below sunshine wall aka the bowl'n alley ...hey the rateing are soft and you don't have all that rock fall or nose up there ass trad geeks

missspell'n and bad attitude due to TEQULIA just climb the shit

[chucK]

Vantage is like the gym:

ratings are soft, climbs are steep. Good training .

 

But even though the popular areas (i.e. Sunshine Wall) are looking more and more like a post-apocalyptic wasteland, the walk back to your car over a fairly pristine desert mesa at sunset rules .